D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
sorcerer and warlock really could've been more significant if they weren't primarily tied to the arcane spell list, if they'd gotten access to a different spell list based on their bloodline/pact, letting them use their unique casting styles across the board, sure maybe the draconic and fiend use the arcane list, but divine soul and celestial are based off of the divine list and storm and fey pact use primal spell lists
 

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R_J_K75

Legend
why? not everything should be a subclass.
I always felt that they were just an offshoot of the wizard class and didn't really fill any role that was missing in the game. Personally, I feel there are too many core classes as is and many could be brought under what I consider the 4 core classes. the Fighter, Cleric, Rogue and Wizard and all the others might be able to be condensed as sub-classes under the 4 core classes. I hope that if we ever see a 6th edition that they get rid of classes altogether. Obviously and this is just my opinion and I'm not saying the sorcerer and warlock don't have a place in the game, but don't think they should be sperate classes.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
And, to your "seven thousand different classes" hyperbole: I've already gone through and pared things down to a realistic number. I think D&D has in it somewhere between 18 and 24 distinct classes--generally falling closer to the middle of that range unless you get real particular, or start adding more obscure options like "monster" classes or similar. Not even double the number of classes present in 5e as it currently exists, at the absolute most--and possibly not even 50% more.
Since it's relevant to my interests, I would also note that class breadth has an inverse correlation with class depth. 5e classes (and modern D&D classes in general) are constrained by the fact that the class must be filled out with interesting choices across 20 levels.

Contrast with something like Shadowdark, where all the class features come at 1st level and just scale (mostly randomly) from there. When the class definition is light, you can support a broader number of classes.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Obviously and this is just my opinion and I'm not saying the sorcerer and warlock don't have a place in the game, but don't think they should be sperate classes.
If they aren't classes, they aren't truly in the game. The wizard is an uber-speciffic baseline that doesn't allow enough breathing room for warlock and sorcerer to exist as subclasses.

Out of "I studied to get magic" "I or someone else bargained for power" and "I just have magic" why is the first one somehow more generic?
 

pawsplay

Hero
Well, wizard does ultimately come from the worse wise, and implies excessive or bad knowledge. Warlock probably comes from oath-breaker or deceiver, so implies profanity, corruption, and artfulness. Sorcerer is kind of odd; it comes from a word for fortune-telling.
 


MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I don't understand where you're coming from saying this perhaps you can elaborate.
I at, some point, made a thread about this. https://www.enworld.org/threads/on-...should-be-merged-or-not-they-shouldnt.670175/

My point is, the sorcerer (charismatic, instinctive, emotional, magic as nature and not a choice) contrasts with the warlock (sneaky, roguey, cunning, magic as unnatural) and the wizard ( smart, scholarly, magic as an active ongoing choice) are just too different to coexist in the same class. If you make a class that seeks to preserve these themes, that class has to be extremely barebones with little active mechanical support -because active support for one of the themes might get in the way of the other- or basically be so segmented that you have essentially three classes that just happen to not be able to multiclass with each other, or worse basically be point buy.

This is even more difficult because people are stuck on-the wizard-is-the-generic-one mindset when it is the most ultra-especiffic one. Sorcerer is 'I just have magic'. Warlock is 'my magic is borrowed from another entity', and the wizard is 'my magic is the result of years of study and I practice it everyday by studying my book'. How are the first two subflavors the last one? (If anything, the first one is the broadest, yet it still leaves behind some of the themes of the other two)

There is not enough thematic room in the wizard class for the warlock and sorcerer. One can come with a subclass that kind of resembles superficially each and can stand for them in a pinch, but that fails to properly reflect these stories and themes. Like the subclass up here that claims to be a sorcerer subclass for the wizard, yet changes nothing about the base class and without further houserules cannot properly portray a sorcerer. The worst part is that it reduces sorcerers to just metamagic while doing away with all of the cool bloodline themes -for example-. * And that's the issue, like deciding that pastries are just a kind of bread and that to streamline things and you are going to only have one croisant covered in chocolate and filled with sour cream and have that stand for cookies, cupcakes, donuts and everything else.

Or just look at how the warlord is doing in 5e. The Battlemaster has enough maneuvers to build a kind of warlord if you squint and you can use feats to kind of get there. And that is not precisely a warlord, because it is only a build, a one-of. And most importantly cannot cover the diversity of warlords that 4e allowed. (Let's not talk of lazy lord, it is just not possible)

* Let me tell you, if you need extra rules for the subclass to kinda stand in for a class, then it isn't a successful merge, and if the rules are thorough enough that you can fully replace it, then you haven't removed the class, it is just now unwritten and implicit for no reason other than aesthetics.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
• sorcerer (charismatic, instinctive, emotional, magic as nature and not a choice)
• warlock (sneaky, roguey, cunning, magic as unnatural)
• wizard (smart, scholarly, magic as an active ongoing choice)

are just too different to coexist in the same class.

Whether someone is "emotional", "roguish", or "scholarly", is in the biography part of the character sheet, that describes personality, including Bond, Quirk, Flaw, Ideal, and Alignment.

It is a narrative that is separate from the class, and strictly separate from mechanics. Obviously, some Wizards are emotional, and some Sorcerers are rational. Some Warlocks are sneaky, and other Warlocks are reluctant, or defiant. It all depends on the players own character concept.

It is somewhat unhelpful to design a class around a "mood", especially when players have diverse moods and perspectives.

I am confident a single class can accommodate all three, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard.

For example, a Psion with a Warlock mechanical chassis, Short Rest spell points, and a player choice of any mental ability for the casting ability, can easily have subclasses for each one of these concepts: gift, pact, and scholarship.


For design, it is far more important to focus one what mage character DOES.

A Wizard reads a book. So what? How does this literacy affect what a Wizard DOES? In this case, the research and records amasses an understanding of many different kinds of spells. So, mechanically, the Wizard can easily swap one "prepared" spell for a different one. The other mage concepts dont have this versatility. The other mages are more specialized, focused, and dedicated to a theme.

A Psion who can easily swap spells, feels like a Wizard, even if there are no books.

A Sorcerer trains to develop ones personal magical talent, similar to an athlete training. Albeit, this talent might be an inhuman one inherited from ancestor of an other species. The sorcery requires tremendous self awareness and discipline − even while some express this discipline as that of an obsessive artist or virtuoso musician. The Sorcerer specializes in a magic thematically, and does it well, and comes to do it easily as a habit. The mechanics of metamagic intends to express this concept of a virtuoso. There is less access to spells but the spells are more effective.

More design work is necessary to actualize the concept of "innate" magic. For example, spells that require a Material Component are horrifically non-innate. The components line needs to delete from every spell description. Each class and subclass defines its own method for spellcasting.

Both Wizard and Sorcerer are innately magical. But they approach magic differently, according to different to different methods and techniques. The Wizard explores the magical properties of ordinary objects, such as plants and stones (the Material Components), to discover and apply the principles of magic inherent in the multiverse − the Weave. The Sorcerer relies on ones own personal magical to selfexpressly influence the world around one. Often there are aspects of the multiverse that the Sorcerer intimately resonnates, such as Dragons, or Elemental energy, or Celestial being. In some ways, one incarnates these beings, heightening a thematic specialty.

The Sorcerer is the same thing as a Warlock. Whether a pact transforms the mage or an inheritance transforms the mage, the mage is gifted magically, a protegy without the need to "study" and whence a tendency to focus magic thematically. The mechanics of each augment a spell, whether by metamagic enhances it or by an invocation enhances it. The Warlock tends to have more always-on powers, more potent than cantrips − but one would think a Sorcerer with bodily magic, instincts, and reflexes should too, like an athlete jumping whenever.

A Warlock makes a "pact" with a powerful being, or sometimes inherits the magic from an ancestor who made a pact. Reciprocally, A Sorcerer can make a pact, in the sense of being personally transformed by a powerful Dragon, Fey, or Celestial. The Warlock and the Sorcerer are the same.

A Psion base can easily handle subclasses for Wizard, Sorcerer, and Warlock. It looks like only two subclasses are necessary.


An example of what would differ is, a Summoner. (Elric comes to mind, for those familiar with the books about him.) The Summoner makes "pacts" with various beings, including powerful ones, and summons them to perform tasks, often by means of rituals and contracts. The Summoner never casts the Fly spell. Instead, the Summoner conjures an Air Elemental to carry oneself. The Summoner never casts Cure Wounds. Instead, the Summoner conjures a Unicorn who heals. And so on. The Summoner is DOING magic differently.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Let me tell you, if you need extra rules for the subclass to kinda stand in for a class, then it isn't a successful merge, and if the rules are thorough enough that you can fully replace it, then you haven't removed the class, it is just now unwritten and implicit for no reason other than aesthetics.
Sadly, rule design based on what I call meta-aesthetics, e.g. rules that feel nice because they're symmetric or reaching an arbitrary line of simplicity (usually "limit things to X classes and no more" or similar) is widely popular despite not actually leading to better design outcomes.

We are compelled by design that feels like it is what it "should" be, much more than by design that has actually been tested and confirmed to actually fulfill the intent for which it was designed.

Hence why, even though I know the design value of useful consistency, I have also quoted Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." Because the operative word there is "a foolish consistency." Any such effort, turning some subset of the meta-aesthetic goals into the purpose of design, necessarily leads to dysfunction and debility, as those things, originally noble, are "arbitrarily wrenched from their context in the whole and then swollen to madness in their isolation." (CS Lewis, The Abolition of Man.)

Design that cares about meta-aesthetic concerns like brevity, simplicity, consistency, accessibility, etc., is not bad; indeed, I am committed to the hilt that design which blithely dismisses these things is necessarily bad design. But, ultimately, these are nice-to-haves. They are not the actual goal of design. The goal of design, of any design not just in games but in machines and laws and buildings and anything else devised by human arts, is to bring about the designer's intent well, to do or be exactly what was sought after.

Of course, the designer may find along the way that her intent was a poor one, and thus fulfilling it would be bad; that is not a knock against design, but rather against the unwise designer for choosing a goal that was not worthy. But just as architecture cannot tell you that it is better to design a school or a hospital than an abattoir or a gallows, only better and worse ways of designing any given building, or how it cannot tell you that wood is better than steel but can tell you whether a task can be fulfilled by one and not the other, so too with game design. It cannot tell you whether one design goal is better than another; it can only help you better realize a design goal you have already brought in yourself.

Letting meta-aesthetics replace this fundamental goal of game design, rather than taking their proper (and vital) place as guides to the real end thereof, harms the finished product. Like cooking a meal based only on how much color and vibrance it will have, regardless of flavor, nutrition, or indeed edibility. Like writing a novel based only on hammering home a political polemic, at the expense of entertainment, artistic beauty, or indeed basic readability. That the food we eat should (generally) look good is not a problem, and indeed color is a useful albeit imperfect proxy for other good things like nutritional value and flavor. To make color the goal of food, however, is to harm eating. That our works of fiction express ideas and beliefs is not in doubt, indeed, I think most readers can tell (and generally dislike) when a story is written with no beliefs or ideas underlying it, as the work suffers for this loss in most cases. But to turn, or should I say reduce, fiction into nothing more than a vehicle for ramming beliefs into the reader's head as hard as possible is to rob fiction of most (if not all!) of its virtue.
 


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