D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Yaarel]

I am looking closer at the UA7 for the 2024 Warlock.

These Warlocks actually do "quest for knowledge", like Wizards do. But "they make pacts ... unlocking magical effects, as they pry into the mysteries of realities".

In this flavor, the Warlock is soliciting the otherworldly being to be a tutor. Warlocks study, but get insider info from someone who already knows.

Typically, the Warlock-to-be is motivated by power, and the being tempts and traps the Warlock in a bargain. Warlocks "wield the power their patrons have given them". Apparently, the gift is the knowledge to know how to perform this kind of magical power.

According to this flavor, Warlocks are like Wizards.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Of course it matters how you became that. That's literally what a hero's journey IS.

Which should happen during the play, not in your background!

But it must go there. There is no other place for it to go. That's the inherent problem of the Faustian bargain, it is always with an entity that has all the cards.

If it were something to be written by the DM, with every trick in the book, no one would ever play it, because players aren't stupid, they don't sign their (game) lives away for stupid and $#¡††¥ reasons. I doubt most DMs would even want to, since that is even moreso heavy lifting, putting a ton and a half on thr DM's shoulders. You'd be effectively banning the class. (But perhaps that was the intent all along?)

Just no. If the player thinks it is cool, they will go for it. And once we eliminate the idea that such pacts produce this one character class, we have way more flexibility to handle it.

 

[Minigiant]

Yeah, plenty of non-god entities have been able to grant spells back in AD&D alone, yet alone nowerdays

The elemental evil crew weren't gods but they could grant spells fine

Again only low level spells.

They can't promise much power to you.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I am looking closer at the UA7 for the 2024 Warlock.

These Warlocks actually do "quest for knowledge", like Wizards do. But "they make pacts ... unlocking magical effects, as they pry into the mysteries of realities".

In this flavor, the Warlock is soliciting the otherworldly being to be a tutor. Warlocks study, but get insider info from someone who already knows.

Typically, the Warlock to be is motivated by power, and the being tempts and traps the Warlock in a bargain. Warlocks "wield the power their patrons have given them". Apparently, the gift is the knowledge to know how to perform this kind of magical power.

According to this flavor, Warlocks are like Wizards.

That's one way to look at it.

But the truth is that the whole thing is massively vague. There is no clear indication whether the patron can revoke the powers, whether continued cooperation with the patron is required for new powers, whether the patron has any actual leverage on the warlock to get them to do their bidding etc. Nothing. Relationship with the patron is the whole defining thing of the warlock fluff, but in the rulebook it almost doesn't exist.

 

[Yaarel]

That's one way to look at it.

But the truth is that the whole thing is massively vague. There is no clear indication whether the patron can revoke the powers, whether continued cooperation with the patron is required for new powers, whether the patron has any actual leverage on the warlock to get them to do their bidding etc. Nothing. Relationship with the patron is the whole defining thing of the warlock fluff, but in the rulebook it almost doesn't exist.

It seems like the 2024 Warlock class description, is aware that the 2014 Warlock is too much like the Sorcerer. But in subtly spinning, ended up making the Warlock too much like the Wizard.

The solution is still to merge the Warlock and Sorcerer. The Wizard is magic generally. The Warlock-Sorcerer is a specialization of magic relating to a powerful creature.

 

[Minigiant]

That's one way to look at it.

But the truth is that the whole thing is massively vague. There is no clear indication whether the patron can revoke the powers, whether continued cooperation with the patron is required for new powers, whether the patron has any actual leverage on the warlock to get them to do their bidding etc. Nothing. Relationship with the patron is the whole defining thing of the warlock fluff, but in the rulebook it almost doesn't exist.

That's because WOTC was overly permissive to allow for special cases instead of saying those cases are special.

It seems like the 2024 Warlock class description, is aware that the 2014 Warlock is too much like the Sorcerer. But in subtly spinning, ended up making the Warlock too much like the Wizard.

The solution is still to merge the Warlock and Sorcerer.

Nah.

The solution is to define the Warlock's pact and Sorcerer's origin.

 

[Yaarel]

The solution is to define the Warlock's pact and Sorcerer's origin.

The solution is to come up with MECHANICS and narratives that cohere with each other.

If a class has always-on powers, how does this happen?

If the Warlock has Eldtritch Blast − a telekinetic force − why? How? Does this mastery of telekinesis continue elsewhere in warlockry?

If the Sorcerer wields magic innately. Why are there Material Components? When did the Sorcerer learn how to use Material Components? Material components are complex, like chemistry. If a Sorcerer uses a wand − wands are also external and noninnate.

The Sorcerer has poor mechanics and a redundant − even self-conflictive − narrative.

The problem is, in the context of 5e, the Sorcerer class no longer serves a purpose. It steps on the toes of both the Wizard and the Warlock.

 

[Leatherhead]

Well I'm late to the party this time.

Anyway there is a growing resentment towards fantasy using genetic based magic systems, which the Sorcerer falls under, because it has "Bloodline Magic." Given that the Warlock can easily handle all of the magical origins via different means (and arguably better mechanics), while Psions are better at covering the "innate power" or "mutants" angle, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a Sorcerer in the actual next edition of D&D.

 

[ezo]

The solution is to differientiate the spell lists (at the very least) and preferrably to have classes use magic in ways other than just casting spells.

Warlock Invocations is a perfect example. How about NO spells for warlocks, just a huge list of magic-like powers? Best if none of these simply mirror an actual spell.

I'm not saying I know right now how to do this, but frankly there are too many spellcasters.

How you get spells, what ability score is used, etc. is really just fluff IMO. I haven't kept up on new spells added since Xanathar's, but in the stuff I have, there are over 430 spells usable by the full-casters: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard.

Only 30% are unique to a single class, and over 40% are available to at least three full-casting classes!

I mean, really, how special can different classes feel if it comes down to:
I cast spells through music and song.
I cast spells given by the powers of my god(dess).
I cast spells provided by the force of nature.
I cast spells harnessed by the strength of my bloodline.
I cast spells bargained for with a mysterious entity.
I cast spells learned by toil and study of arcane secrets.

There is a disturbing trend IMO.

I know it isn't easy, and just calling different "powers" by different names isn't really what I mean.

 

[Minigiant]

The solution is to come up with MECHANICS and narratives that cohere with each other.

If a class has always-on powers, how does this happen?

If the Warlock has Eldtritch Blast − a telekinetic force − why? How? Does this mastery of telekinesis continue elsewhere in warlockry?

If the Sorcerer wields magic innately. Why are there Material Components? When did the Sorcerer learn how to use Material Components? Material components are complex, like chemistry. If a Sorcerer uses a wand − wands are also external and noninnate.

The Sorcerer has poor mechanics and a redundant − even self-conflictive − narrative.

The problem is, in the context of 5e, the Sorcerer class no longer serves a purpose. It steps on the toes of both the Wizard and the Warlock.

Again the problem is that WOTC and most of the community never bothered to expand Sorcerer's purpose and lore into full unique mechanics.

WOTC just remade the 3e one with Metamagic and everyone else is just riffing and rebalancing that mess instead of going back to the drawing board.