D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Ruin Explorer]

I'd actually challenge you on the healing thing in FF. It's very very much inspired by D&D itself, but its White Magic/Black Magic divide is actually distinct from Cleric/Wizard while still being the same overall concept.

White Mages heal, defensively buff allies, destroy undead, and (sometimes) get a really nice AoE bomb at high levels (Holy) and/or some enemy debuffs. Black Mages do not heal, but in many games they bring the most utility magic (e.g. teleports, scrying if relevant, avoidance), some offensive buffs, enemy debuffs, and always the most powerful and diverse "boom" options, usually capping out with Meteor.

Characters/classes which blend the two, like Red Mages or Sages, make sacrifices elsewhere in the doing. RDM is quintessential "jack of all trades, master of none" that makes them very similar to the modern Bard, while Sage (outside of its unique expression in FFXIV) is "pure white and black magic, BUT you run out of mana faster and are as sturdy as wet tissue paper."

FF is really one of the few franchises where the "arcane casters don't heal" thing is enforced about as well as it is in D&D itself. Which is to say, not much, but still somewhat.

Which FF, exactly, are you talking about? You'd straight up lose that debate in most FFs because most of them don't even have classes in them, only characters.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Which FF, exactly, are you talking about? You'd straight up lose that debate in most FFs because most of them don't even have classes in them, only characters.

pre 7 had a class system and the mmo had classes

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Which FF, exactly, are you talking about? You'd straight up lose that debate in most FFs because most of them don't even have classes in them, only characters.

I, III, V, X2, XI-XIV, Tactics (and its GBA spinoffs).

Also, while there aren't selectable classes in them, characters with effectively fixed jobs also appear in IV, VI, and IX; they may not be called "White Mage" or "Black Mage" in every game, but (for example) Porom and Palom are precisely that, and the game references job names (e.g. Tellah is a Sage, Edward is an infamously "spoony Bard," Kain is a Dragoon, etc.) Vivi, for example, isn't called a BLM, but absolutely 100% is one.

So, by my count, that's ten true mainline games (assuming you don't count X2 as a mainline game) out of a total of sixteen, and two further prominent, well-known games of the series (one of which has even further spinoffs).

I think it is fair to say that, while FF does do its own thing with each new game, the pattern generally holds. FFII, VII, VIII, and X are exceptions, and worthy of note as a result, but still exceptional.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

pre 7 had a class system and the mmo had classes

This is straightforwardly untrue.

Also, while there aren't selectable classes in them, characters with effectively fixed jobs also appear in IV, VI, and IX; they may not be called "White Mage" or "Black Mage" in every game, but (for example) Porom and Palom are precisely that, and the game references job names (e.g. Tellah is a Sage, Edward is an infamously "spoony Bard," Kain is a Dragoon, etc.) Vivi, for example, isn't called a BLM, but absolutely 100% is one.

That's a pretty weasel-y approach, frankly. The majority don't have classes, and in the majority of games, many characters can heal, including ones who can cast very dangerous spells. There's certainly no clear line like you suggest.

XI-XIV

Nope.

XI and XIV - no dash. XII doesn't have the separation you claim in the actual classes. I can only assume you didn't play XIII and are making an assumption - it doesn't have those classes at all - it's also not a game that actually involves healing magic most of the time.

Also what about XV and XVI? Why did you exclude them? You mention 16 games but then you don't actually list all the games which don't fit the pattern.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I, III, V, X2, XI-XIV, Tactics (and its GBA spinoffs).

Also, while there aren't selectable classes in them, characters with effectively fixed jobs also appear in IV, VI, and IX; they may not be called "White Mage" or "Black Mage" in every game, but (for example) Porom and Palom are precisely that, and the game references job names (e.g. Tellah is a Sage, Edward is an infamously "spoony Bard," Kain is a Dragoon, etc.) Vivi, for example, isn't called a BLM, but absolutely 100% is one.

So, by my count, that's ten true mainline games (assuming you don't count X2 as a mainline game) out of a total of sixteen, and two further prominent, well-known games of the series (one of which has even further spinoffs).

I think it is fair to say that, while FF does do its own thing with each new game, the pattern generally holds. FFII, VII, VIII, and X are exceptions, and worthy of note as a result, but still exceptional.

from my time playing it i'd say X still has a good few characters generally fitting into some pretty typical class or multiclass archetypes, yuna the white mage/summoner, lulu the black mage, khamari is a dragoon/blue mage, rikku is a thief/alchemist, tidus, wakka and auron are less clearly class oriented but vaguely i'd assign them as bard, archer and barbarian-esc in their respective build designs

 

[Shadowedeyes]

So, maybe controversial, but 3e's sorcerer had way more of a reason for existing IMO, which is precisely that it didn't use the classic Vancian method of the wizard. But that got diluted in 5e, and as such the sorcerer really comes off as Wizard minus a spellbook.

 

[Shardstone]

Wizard really should just be a Sorcerer subclass.

 

[Scribe]

why should inborn magic be a thing?

Why wouldnt it be?

 

[CleverNickName]

I am not the biggest psion fan, but I would support replacing sorcerer with a psion. The arcane caster line-up is just too crowded, there is not enough room for thematical or mechanical distinction.

And honestly? The sorcerer's Aberrant Mind subclass with the Spell Points system in the DMG will get you 90% of the way there.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

So, maybe controversial, but 3e's sorcerer had way more of a reason for existing IMO, which is precisely that it didn't use the classic Vancian method of the wizard. But that got diluted in 5e, and as such the sorcerer really comes off as Wizard minus a spellbook.

A pretty common critique.

It is weird that the "everything from every PHB ever" applied to the sorcerer, despite its identity crisis, but not, say, the Warlord.

It would not be hard to imagine a world where sorcerers were a subclass of wizards or where both were subclasses of mages. (As seen in the earliest 2024 UAs.)