D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I agree with the "give sorcerers something unique to do"; I vehemently disagree with the "take metamagic away from wizards".

Wizard is the definite class that should be able to tweak and modify spells. Not on the spot, but home in the lab.

Don't try to call that "salvaging" something, as if metamagic was ruined by wizards being allowed to use it.

The problem was Sorcerer wasn't unique enough, and that was a problem WotC created entirely by themselves.

For those to young to remember, in 3E sorcerers traded one level's worth of magic progress for being able to escape Vancian casting. That is, Wizards needed to select (and lock in) specific spells in specific wizard slots each morning, and if they didn't need that spell during the day, too bad. In order to not have to do this (3E Sorcerers worked pretty much like 5E spellcasters in general), 3E Sorcerers had to give up one level's worth of magic progress. E.g. where wizards got Fireball at level 5, Sorcerers got it at level 6. But once they got it, they could spend all their magic energy (all their slots of high enough level) on Fireball. Wizards in contrast, could cast exactly as few or many Fireballs as they selected that morning.

But for 5E WotC decided to do away with Vancian casting, and now they were left with a Sorcerer with no compelling unique feature. Unimaginative as they were, they decided the only solution was to remove something quintessential from the Wizard for the sole reason to make Sorcerer feel less derivative and more unique.

So start again, and now find a solution that doesn't steal metamagic away from Wizards.
Again, they were going to take metamagic away from Wizards (and everybody else) anyway. They had removed it half-way through the playtest with little fanfaire. And at that point it was a lame "once per day metamagic". (And now that I think of it, the feat from Tasha's that anybody can take is basically that). My point is they had no idea how to balance metamagic with NeoVancian and metamagic was put on the cutting floor. The only reason we have metamagic right now in the game is because they had to come up with something for the sorcerer (and yet they still had no idea how to balance it)

BTW You can have metamagic on your wizard using the Tasha's feat. (Metamagic adept) you don't even need high charisma for it.
 

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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Again, they were going to take metamagic away from Wizards (and everybody else) anyway. They had removed it half-way through the playtest with little fanfaire. And at that point it was a lame "once per day metamagic". (And now that I think of it, the feat from Tasha's that anybody can take is basically that). My point is they had no idea how to balance metamagic with NeoVancian and metamagic was put on the cutting floor. The only reason we have metamagic right now in the game is because they had to come up with something for the sorcerer (and yet they still had no idea how to balance it)

BTW You can have metamagic on your wizard using the Tasha's feat. (Metamagic adept) you don't even need high charisma for it.
That’s my take as well. 3e style meta magic doesn’t exist anymore because no one is a Vanician caster anymore. What the 5e sorcerer has wasn’t taken from the 5e wizard because despite the similar name, it functions differently with different thematic flavor.
 



Shadowedeyes

Adventurer
I've been thinking about this a bit since my last post. And I think there is two distinct predecessors to the current sorcerer, the 3e one and the 4e one. They are actually quite different as well.

The 3e sorcerer, at it's base, is concerned with the thematic of inborn magical talent, although not so much on the how of it, basically just having a throwaway line about maybe because of dragon lineage. Mechanically it was a an arcane spellcaster that did not use the Vancian casting method of the Wizard, instead opting for a more flexible at the moment but with less ability to pivot day to day, and used Charisma rather than Intelligence. It's worth noting the Sorcerer had access to the entire wizard spell list in this variation, and seems like it mostly existed to offer Arcane casting with a different spellcasting mechanic.

The 4e sorcerer went much more into the how of the thematic part, with every sorcerer having to pick a type of sorcerous power, namely, dragon, wild, storm or cosmic if I remember correctly. The mechanics are a bit harder to compare because of the changes to how powers worked in that edition, with most everyone using a similar structure. Instead, it differentiated itself from wizard by being a striker/damage dealing class to the wizard's controller designation.

The 5e class takes elements from both. It has more emphasis on the origin of your abilities than the 3e sorcerer did, but goes back to having a similar spellcasting list to the wizard, although unlike 3e they curtailed it in comparison. They are a spells known class to the preperation based wizard, but Vancian style casting is no longer a thing, losing the main point of difference for the 3e version, instead wizard's cast exactly like sorcerers but out of their prepared spells for each day. I think this was a misstep, as the sorcerer feels like a lesser version of the wizard, just with that origin flavor, and I think the designers realized that too, hence the metamagic.

Now, I suppose I should have a point. I guess my thought is that thematically the sorcerer is useful, but unfortunately the mechanics are lacking. I mentioned previously that combining it with the Warlock was an interesting idea, and I think it still is. The Pact Magic casting mechanics and Invocations would offer the differentiating mechanics from the wizard it needs, and it would still be able to mantain it's current thematic niche as well. It's certainly not the only solution, but one that I think could work.
 


SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Almost every new "arcane" spell is a wizard spell. Often they share with others but Wizard is tagged the most.
Just like any new weapon is a fighter weapon.

I "think" what you are seeing is comments from people who feel wizard is the arcane baseline, so naturally other arcane things would be subsets of that.

Personally, I feel sorcerers and warlocks should get more unique spells and abilities, tied to their flavor.

But the wizard/arcane spell list is the generic building block, and was for a long time if counting earlier editions, so you see a lot of people coming from the point of view of getting their illusionists, diabolists, witches, blue mages, etc built from that base.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
The beginning adventure I've always ran has a NPC noble family of shadow sorcerers, House Knoire. They are descended from a black dragon who absorbed too much necrotic energy in a fight. They grow wings on their 19th birthday and this is how they discover the bastards and abandoned children. Because every Knoire is a goth beauty and has secret kids.

The early quest is to find a missing girl and bring her back to Castle Knoire to be trained before she causes disaster. The party has to fight a horde of skeletons as the girl can't control her acid spells and necromancy. If they lollygag, a warlock manipulates her into going into the cave the party cleared of goblins and the have the fight acid-infused goblin zombies backed up with an evil fiendlock.
Beautiful concept.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
In any case, if anyone has access to this amazing playtest sorcerer I'd really like to see it. I didn't participate the playtest, but I have some files, alas, it doesn't seem to be among them.

I didn't see anyone mention anything about showing you this, and I do have the old packets. Instead of trying to attach the file, I'm just going to spoiler the text. This was released 08/17/2012, and the sorcerer did not appear again in the playtest documents I have. So, we went from this text, to the 2014 PHB sorcerer. And they are VASTLY different

Sorcerer

Magic is part of a sorcerer’s being. In some sorcerers, it is an untamed, wild power that surges and roils, constantly on the verge of breaking free. In others, it is a smooth, sweet charge that tingles in the blood, bubbling forth in breath and the spoken word. Some sorcerers think it seems to have a mind of its own, while for others it is more like a raging storm—neither willful nor malicious, but destructive nonetheless.

The origin of this magical power is just as varied. Some trace it to an ancient draconic bloodline, while some pin it to the mischievous influence of the fey. Sometimes it’s the result of exposure to a powerful spell or planar phenomenon, and sometimes the result of a malign intrusion into the sorcerer’s mind.

Whatever its nature and origin, a sorcerer’s magic requires a powerful will to harness and shape it, and to keep it in check. The more a sorcerer allows this power to emerge, the less controlled it becomes. As a sorcerer’s willpower begins to ebb and his or her magic surges, the sorcerer begins to transform. The sorcerer seems to diminish as the magic takes over, its characteristics overshadowing the sorcerer’s own body and personality.

Key Ability: Charisma. A sorcerer needs a high Charisma score, since it takes a strong personality and great willpower to draw magic forth, shape it into useful forms, and keep it under your control.


Creating a Sorcerer

When you create a character whose first class is sorcerer, you gain these benefits.
Ability Adjustment: +1 to your Charisma or Constitution score
Starting Hit Points: See your sorcerous origin
Armor and Shield Proficiencies: None, but see your sorcerous origin
Weapon Proficiencies: Basic weapons, simple missile weapons, daggers, and quarterstaffs

You can make a sorcerer quickly by following these suggestions.
Suggested Background: Artisan
Suggested Specialty: Jack-of-All-Trades


LevelMagic AttackWeapon AttackSpell DCWillpowerSpells KnownMax Spell LevelClass Features
1+2+210 + Cha Mod
3​
2​
1​
Cantrips, Sorcery, Sorcerous Origin
2+2+210 + Cha Mod
4​
3​
1​
--
3+2+210 + Cha Mod
8​
4​
1​
--
4+2+210 + Cha Mod
10​
5​
2​
Sorcerous Power
5+2+210 + Cha Mod
16
6​
2​
--

Class Features: A sorcerer gains the following class features.

Your Hit Dice and hit points are determined by your sorcerous origin.

Level 1: Cantrips
Your magical nature expresses itself through minor magical effects as well as more powerful spells and powers. Benefit: You know two minor spells, chosen from the sorcerer’s spell list.

Level 1: Sorcery
Your spells are not learned from books or granted by pacts or prayers. They come from within you, from magic that flows within you just as your blood and breath do. The magic within you surges and seethes, and unleashing it into the world is a tremendous act of will. Every spell you cast takes its toll on your willpower, so your mental reserves limit the number of spells you can cast before you need to rest and replenish those reserves.

Benefit: You can cast sorcerer spells each day based on your willpower. The Sorcerer table notes how many willpower points you have, the number of sorcerer spells you know, and the maximum level of those spells.
Spells Known: At 1st level, you know two 1stlevel spells chosen from the sorcerer’s spell list. As you gain levels in this class, you learn additional spells of your choice. When you learn a new sorcerer spell, its level must be no higher than your maximum spell level, and it cannot be a minor spell.
Casting a Spell: You must spend willpower points to cast a sorcerer spell (other than a minor spell). A spell’s level determines the spell’s willpower cost. If you don’t have enough willpower available, you cannot cast the spell.

Spell Level​
Willpower Cost​
1​
1​
2​
2​

You regain all of your expended willpower points at the end of a long rest.

You cannot cast sorcerer spells while wearing armor (but see your sorcerous origin).

Magical Attacks: When you make a magical attack using a sorcerer spell, you use your Charisma modifier for the attack roll, and add a bonus to that roll based on the Magic Attack column in the Sorcerer table.
Saving Throw DCs: When a sorcerer spell that you cast calls for a saving throw, the save DC equals 10 + your Charisma modifier. As you gain levels, the DC increases, as noted in the Sorcerer table.

Level 1: Sorcerous Origin
Some event in your own past history or that of a parent or ancestor left its indelible mark on you, leaving magic as an inherent part of your being. This font of arcane magic, whatever its origin, fuels your spells and also grants you supernatural abilities called sorcerous powers that are directly tied to your origin. Just as you can focus your will to cast spells, you can harness those same reserves of willpower to manifest these sorcerous powers. However, as your willpower begins to
fail, your magic begins to overshadow you. As you diminish, your magic takes over, transforming your body (and sometimes your personality) into something more akin to the source of your power. As the magic within you grows in power, so does the strength of these transformations, until you look less like yourself and more like a physical manifestation of your sorcerous origin.
Benefit: You choose a sorcerous origin and gain its benefits (one option is presented here, a draconic origin).
Using Sorcerous Powers: Your origin grants you sorcerous powers at certain levels. A sorcerous power is a magical effect that functions as a spell in all respects, except that using a sorcerous power does not require you to speak or have a hand free, and the power is not subject to spell disruption.
Saving Throw DCs: When a sorcerous power that you use calls for a saving throw, the save DC equals 10 + your Charisma modifier. As you gain levels, the DC increases as your spell saving throw DC does, as noted in the Sorcerer table.

Draconic Heritage
Somewhere in your ancestry, the blood of a dragon entered your lineage. Its effects do not manifest in every generation, and they do not always appear as full-fledged sorcerous powers. But in you, the blood runs true. The legacy of the wyrm twines through your dreams and flesh.

When your willpower is depleted and your heritage transforms you, you might manifest the personality traits of a dragon, as well as draconic physical traits. You might become both acquisitive and proud and, depending on your heritage, behave like a brutal savage, an arrogant tyrant, or a haughty noble.

When you choose this heritage, choose a dragon type. You are descended from a dragon of that type. Your choice of dragon determines the damage type referred to in some of your sorcerous powers, and also affects your appearance and personality when you transform.

Dragon Type​
Damage Type​
BlackAcid
BlueLightning
BrassFire
BronzeLightning
CopperAcid
GoldFire
GreenPoison
RedFire
SilverCold
WhiteCold

Hit Dice: 1d8 per sorcerer level
Hit Points: 8 + your Constitution modifier at 1st level, and 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per sorcerer level gained
Armor and Shield Proficiencies: You gain proficiency with all armor and shields. Also, you are able to cast sorcerer spells while wearing armor.
Weapon Proficiencies: You gain proficiency with martial melee weapons. Also, the bonus to your weapon attack rolls increases by 1.

Sorcerous Powers: At 1st level, you can spend 1 willpower to use the dragon strength power.
Additionally, each day, after you have spent 3 willpower, your hands become claw-like and your body grows more imposing. Until you complete a long rest, you gain a +2 bonus to the damage rolls of your melee attacks.

Level 4: You can spend 2 willpower to use the dragon scales power.
Additionally, each day, after you have spent 10 willpower, you manifest dragon scales that cover large portions of your skin. Until you complete a long rest, you have resistance to the damage type associated with your type of dragon.

Suggested Equipment: Chainmail, greatsword, dagger, adventurer’s kit, healer’s kit, and 12 gp

Sorcerer Spells
Minor Spells (Cantrips)
Detect Magic
Light
Magic Missile
Ray of Frost
Shocking Grasp

Level 1 Spells
Burning Hands
Cause Fear
Charm Person
Shield

Level 2 Spells
Arc Lightning
Ghoul Touch
Melf’s Acid Arrow
Mirror Image
Resistance

Sorcerous Powers

Dragon Scales

You cause your skin to thicken into protective scales, the hue of which is reminiscent of a dragon (and specifically the dragon at the source of your heritage, if you have a draconic heritage).
Requirement: You can use this power only as a reaction in response to taking damage.
Effect: Before you take the damage, it is reduced by 10. If you have the Draconic Heritage class feature, you also gain resistance to the damage type determined by your type of dragon. The resistance lasts until the end of your next turn.

Dragon Strength
You channel the ancient strength of the dragon, causing you to deal heavy damage.
Effect: The next time you hit a hostile creature with a melee attack during the next minute, that creature takes an extra 2d6 damage.

So, as you can see, there were a few moving pieces.

Sorcerers got fewer spells known (only 6 by level 5) and their spellcasting was delayed (2nd level spells coming at 4th level). They did have a bit more power to spend casting them though, in the form of Willpower, which works a little like Spell points.

However, Sorcerers ALSO got unique Sorcerous Powers, which did not require components and could not be countered.

The Draconic Sorcerer was a Gish, and the Sorcerer was built such that their Origin impacted their HD, Armor Prof, Weapon Profs, ect. So the Gishy Dragon Sorcerer had a d8 HD, and armor and weapon profs. Additionally, their sorcererous powers included a 1 minute buff to their next damage roll, and a reaction to reduce incoming damage.

Finally, as they spent Willpower and cast their spells and powers, they would unlock traits. The Dragon Sorcerer after spending 3 willpower would grow claws and increase their frame, getting a +2 to damage. Then after 10 Willpower they would grow scales and gain resistance to their damage type. It was also supposed to alter your personality, representing you sliding further and further into the ideal of your origin, and away from your normal nature.

It was a little overtuned, but you can see the framework of some really great ideas, and the fulfillment of concepts like Sorcerers not needing material components, or different Sorcererous Bloodlines having different powers and abilities. You would even have likely had some origins that leaned more into spellcasting, with less armor, less HD, and more spells.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
The Draconic Sorcerer was a Gish, and the Sorcerer was built such that their Origin impacted their HD, Armor Prof, Weapon Profs, ect. So the Gishy Dragon Sorcerer had a d8 HD, and armor and weapon profs. Additionally, their sorcererous powers included a 1 minute buff to their next damage roll, and a reaction to reduce incoming damage.
That to me was the biggest hangup.

They presented Sorcerer wasn't a Focused Caster.

Had they playtested the Wild Magic Sorcerer first as a more traditional caster, it might have been accepted with a Draconic Gish and Divine Healer later.
 

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