D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Crimson Longinus]

See, I think this kind of misses the point though. A Divine Soul sorcerer ISN'T just "a holy themed fullcaster with access to cleric spells" Nor is that what the Celestial Warlock is.

Most Celestial warlocks I've seen follow the route of "I was a piece of crap person, then I made a deal with a celestial, and as part of that deal I am FORCED to repent/rehabilitate". Because the warlock is about the pact. And sure, sure, you could play a fighter with the exact same backstory so what does it matter? It matters because the themes of the class are part of the class. A cleric worships a deity, they are part of the official hierarchy of that deity. A Divine Soul Sorcerer... isn't. They can be used to tell other stories.

If the mechanics actually supported such stories, you'd have a point, but they don't. The mechanics don't care if the cleric was devout from childhood or converted later when they were forced to repent. And there is nothing about warlock mechanics that support the latter better then the cleric mechanics.

I mean, why is it that the Dragon Patron is one of the most requested warlock patrons? We have Drakeguard Rangers, Ascendant Dragon Monks, Dragon Sorcerers, we have dragon themed subclasses everywhere, why do we need a warlock patron? Because that warlock patron slots into different stories. It isn't just "dragon themed subclass" it is "dragon themed WARLOCK" with all that that can offer.

No, it is because warlock is cool chassis with interesting mechanics and sorcerer isn't. So people want to play the "dragon mage" and have decent mechanics so they want a dragon warlock.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So here is my problem with that.

Several of my favorite types of sorcerer don't "transform" into anything. They just have magic that's themed to a certain type of spellcasting. shadow magic doesn't turn you into an undead creature, but it does allow you to tap into magic of the night and gloom. Lunar sorcery is about the moon powering your spells, not turning you into anything. I don't want to lose the option to have sorcerers who are just "storm magic" or "wild magic" without turning into an elemental or a slaad. And I don't want to get saddled with a spell book by being a wizard.

The D&D Next dragon sorcerer was a neat idea for a dragon disciple gish monster class, but it would have been limited to "this subclass turns you into a different monster" and always stuck in the "start a caster, end a melee monster" model. The sorcerer chassis could be used for so many cool ideas for thematic magic (non-aberrant psionics, time magic, elementalists, FF summoners with pets, etc) but everyone, WotC included, gets stuck in the "this turns you into a clockwork monster!" style of thinking.

I can see that concern.

My potential solution for that is mixing in themes. A good example of that could actually be the hero Endeavor. The way his power works is that the longer he fights, the hotter his body gets, and this is more of the theme I would want to see. Maybe a storm sorcerer doesn't literally turn into an elemental, maybe the more of their magic they use, the more their power leaks out into the world, wrapping them in their own personal storm. Maybe they are charged with electricity, and it is sparking from them constantly.

The core I want is the feel of barely constrained power, and I think you could do it where a sorcerer has the option to transform or to just express the power in another way. Then, the trick is, what does the subclass do? A dragon sorcerer might become a melee bruiser, but a Storm Sorcerer might just become even more of a flying lightning mage as their power is unleashed. Or they could pull on winds to move people around.

 

[Minigiant]

As I said above, 5.5 is pretty much done. What WotC wants and is willing to do in regards to design means basically nothing to what we're discussing. If you have an idea you like, put it out there and let it be discussed without the impotent shadow of WotC already-finished plans hanging over it.

The problem isn't solely WOTC, it's the whole designer and DM community.

Basically, D&D needs new classes.

WOTC wont do it.
The 3PP community are sometimes willing to do it. But they all create different content instead of supporting a central idea.

So we never get what is needed spread across the community.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The problem isn't solely WOTC, it's the whole designer and DM community.

Basically, D&D needs new classes.

WOTC wont do it.
The 3PP community are sometimes willing to do it. But they all create different content instead of supporting a central idea.

So we never get what is needed spread across the community.

Have you ever considered that this doesn't catch on because people actually don't want more classes?

 

[Remathilis]

Post some ideas!!!!

WotC tried a few awesome sorcerer ideas already. They had the psionic soul that ended up becoming the aberrant mind (which is less useful if your idea for psionics doesn't involve tentacles), they had an earth/gish sorcerer, a fire/pyromancer sorcerer, and a sea/water one that all missed publishing too. As mentioned, a summoner who has a pet would be an interesting idea, as would a true cosmic sorcerer (the lunar borrowed heavily for it, but I would love a whole sun/moon/stars theme going). I wouldn't mind a witchcraft/green magic style that adds druidic and or warlock magic like the DS does with clerical.

In contrast, I think the warlock should be the "turn into a monster" class where as you level you become more like your patron type. You already have fey, aberrant, fiend, celestial, undead, genie, and kraken as types, you only need giant and dragon to complete the set.

 

[Minigiant]

I can see that concern.

My potential solution for that is mixing in themes. A good example of that could actually be the hero Endeavor. The way his power works is that the longer he fights, the hotter his body gets, and this is more of the theme I would want to see. Maybe a storm sorcerer doesn't literally turn into an elemental, maybe the more of their magic they use, the more their power leaks out into the world, wrapping them in their own personal storm. Maybe they are charged with electricity, and it is sparking from them constantly.

The core I want is the feel of barely constrained power, and I think you could do it where a sorcerer has the option to transform or to just express the power in another way. Then, the trick is, what does the subclass do? A dragon sorcerer might become a melee bruiser, but a Storm Sorcerer might just become even more of a flying lightning mage as their power is unleashed. Or they could pull on winds to move people around.

I saw each subclass "devolving" a 4e pc or monster class

Subclass	Role
Dragon	Soldier
Wild	Controller
Divine	Leader
Shadow	Striker
Storm	Artillery
Earth	Defender

 

[Minigiant]

Have you ever considered that this doesn't catch on because people actually don't want more classes?

No. Because people want more classes. People beg for ew ideas that would require new classes EVERY DAY!

People don't want unsupported classes.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

No. Because people want more classes. People beg for ew ideas that would require new classes EVERY DAY!

Some people. But probably not that many really. If there was genuine demand there would also be people offering it, and what they offer would become popular. But that's not really happening.

People don't want unsupported classes.

Yes. And more classes you have, harder it is to support them. Thus we need less classes so that they can be better supported.

 

[Remathilis]

If the mechanics actually supported such stories, you'd have a point, but they don't. The mechanics don't care if the cleric was devout from childhood or converted later when they were forced to repent. And there is nothing about warlock mechanics that support the latter better then the cleric mechanics.


No, it is because warlock is cool chassis with interesting mechanics and sorcerer isn't. So people want to play the "dragon mage" and have decent mechanics so they want a dragon warlock.

And we're back to only one way to support an archetype.

Guess we can get rid of bladesinger, Eldritch Knight and college of swords because the pact of the blade is the best gish. Or maybe we can delete the scout rogue because the ranger is there. Or maybe war clerics go away since paladins exist. And all those fey themed subs (glamour bard, fey wanderer, archfey pact, ancients paladin) can all disappear because the druid is there.

Heaven forbid there is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Minigiant]

Some people. But probably not that many really. If there was genuine demand there would also be people offering it, and what they offer would become popular. But that's not really happening.

You are missing the fundamental aspect: Money

WOTC knows people want more classes.
Bt those classes wont be in the Player's Handbook

The PHB is the highest selling RPG book.
Printing a book with big new classes lowers PHB sales.
So WOTC created new classes.

And again 3PP don't build the same classes. One makes the Warlord. Another makes the Shifter. A third makes the Apothecary. A fourth makes the Psion. A fifth makes the Anti-Paladin. So you need to buy 2-5 more books to include them and

• None of them are supported by DDB
• None of them are supported by WOTC books
• None of them are supported by other 3pp books
• None of them are supported by setting books
• None of them are supported by setting neutral splat books

How many Blood Hunter feats and subclasses are in Tasha's and Xanatar's or your general 3pp kickers?