D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Micah Sweet]

I was going to respond to someone, but I think this point gets made better in isolation. Because there is a fundamental problem with the claim that martial skill cannot rise to the level of "supernatural" effects.

Wizards.

Stop and consider for a moment how a wizard is defined in Dungeons and Dragons. Are wizards innately supernatural? No. Wizards learn a skill. Magic in DnD is a learned skill, just like dance or music or biology or archeology. There are of course many other ways that magic can be achieved, but our default understanding of the wizard is that they learn a skill.

However, then we turn around and say that a Fighter who learns a skill CANNOT achieve a "supernatural" effect. A fighter needs an explanation, because skill alone isn't enough to become supernatural... like wizards are? But wizardry is a learned skill. A street urchin can find a magical textbook, and practice to learn wizardry, just like they could practice to learn medicine, or practice the arts of war. Monks are supernatural, but it is skill and training.

So... this thing people say cannot possibly work in DnD.... is exactly how DnD works. You can become so skilled at math and physics that you can fly. You can become so skilled at punching and breathing that you can teleport. Why can't you become so skilled with a sword that you can cut something your blade didn't touch?

Of course a fighter can learn to do supernatural martial things. But then they're no longer mundane, and some folks really want to cling to that word.

 

[TwoSix]

Of course a fighter can learn to do supernatural martial things. But then they're no longer mundane, and some folks really want to cling to that word.

The problem is generally that the chain of logic goes:

1) That cool fighter ability is actually supernatural.
2) Fighters are a non-supernatural (mundane) class.
3) Fighters shouldn't be able to do that cool fighter ability.

If we just accept from the start that every class is supernatural, then all these problems go away.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Of course a fighter can learn to do supernatural martial things. But then they're no longer mundane, and some folks really want to cling to that word.

yes, because the non-magical, not supernaturally empowered fighter who still manages to do incredible, extraordinary things through pure strength and skill is a concept people like and want regardless of what you personally think they shouldn't be capable of without supernatural aid.

because in a world with gods and magic and spirits, the guy with just a sword, their muscles and their wits is mundane.

 

[Chaosmancer]

And I don't. What he does is achievable by ordinary humans in his reality. It's just that the vast, vast majority of ordinary humans do not have the actual superpower he possesses, which is his inviolate iron will. (It doesn't hurt that he's also a genius, an Olympic-level athlete, and incredibly charismatic, of course.) Other humans COULD do what he does, and a small number (Oliver Queen/Green Arrow, Selina Kyle/Catwoman, Ben Turner/Bronze Tiger, Dick Grayson/Nightwing, Jim Harper/Guardian, Charles Szasz/The Question, Ted Kord/Blue Beetle, Ted Grant/Wildcat, Helena Bertinelli/Huntress, Sandra Wu-San/Lady Shiva, Richard Drakunovski/Dragon) do more or less the same sort of thing, with variations. Some of them are wealthy (e.g. Queen, Kyle, Grayson), some are highly intelligent (Szasz, Kord), some are Eastern or Western martial arts masters (Turner, Grant, Wu-San, Drakunovski), some are acrobats or (ex-)thieves (Kyle, Grayson, Drakunovski), etc. All are presented as being otherwise-ordinary humans with high dedication, and training that any similarly dedicated, healthy human could complete.

Right, those people are also generally not actually ordinary humans anymore.

Batman has dodged people firing lasers at him, dodged people with super speed, he has survived point blank explosions and walked away from them with little more than a limp. Sure, it is stated that he has no superpowers, but he has also bested people in martial arts whose superpower is being good at martial arts.

This, again, gets into definitions. Batman is not a mundane man. Mundane is something anyone can achieve. It is normal. What Batman does is not normal. Sure, we have olympic level sprinters, and we can say he is an olympic level sprinter... and an olympic level weight lifter, olympic level marksman, olympic level acrobat, olympic level swimmer, olympic level martial artist, olympic level ect ect ect. Normal, mundane people, cannot be the best in every single field all at once, while also being a super genius with multiple doctorates and an engineer capable of making super-tech. We can't survive on 3 hours of sleep a day, for years.

I think our disagreement here is you see supernatural as a source, if it isn't magic or because god blood, then it is mundane skill to you. I disagree, because I see supernatural as the effect. If you punch so fast your fist catches fire from the air, then it is a supernatural effect, even if the reason you can do so is simply a high level of skill in martial arts.

Potayto, potahto. You say it "doesn't exist." I say it's still absolutely there the whole time--it's just that being "mundane" doesn't mean "weak" or "limited" or "incapable" or "restricted."

No, mundane means ordinary. Common place. A mundane boxer isn't "weak" compared to a scrub like me, but he isn't going to be punching through steel walls either. You need to be more than a mundane boxer to achieve that effect.

That's...that's what I said though. To such folks, transcending the limits means you've ceased to be mundane. You are now supernatural. Period. Whatever you were before, you're supernatural now.

That's something I reject. I think someone can still be mundane--still only be using the tools and skills and such that a healthy, dedicated person could learn naturally--but have achieved a degree of skill with those things that surpasses what limits our feeble understanding projects onto them. "There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Just like wizardry, or monks, in DnD. Wizardry is a skill that a healthy, dedicated person can learn naturally in the worlds of DnD. But the effects they achieve with that skill are not mundane, they are supernatural.

That is in fact how the word "supernatural" is used in a D&D context, yes. Anything supernatural is necessarily magical. It may not be spellcasting, but it's definitely magical in some way. You can thank 3e for that; that's how [Su] powers are defined. If you're going to tell me that transcendental mundane powers are "supernatural," I cannot--ever--accept, unless we also re-define "supernatural" in a way that...includes everything natural, which kind of defeats the point.

I don't think it defeats the point, because of perspective. What is supernatural is clearly supernatural from our perspective on Earth. If a man was throwing fire from his hands on earth, we'd call that supernatural. But multiple people in DnD settings are simply born with that capability. It is completely natural and mundane for an elf to cast a cantrip, or to dream about their own death in a past life.

DnD is so full of magic that nature itself is magical in DnD. Which is fine, that's how I like it.

I still maintain, however, that there is a difference between the transmundane and the supernatural. The latter is spooky-action-at-a-distance stuff. The former retains extremely relevant characteristics from its mundanity. It is still linked in some meaningful way to physical action. "Research" or "meditation" alone cannot advance it, only practice and skill development can do that (though it doesn't hurt to do your research, of course). It cannot be transferred to another in any way other than imparting a lesson and then having the student drill on those lessons. It cannot be limited by any of the things which would normally stop or forestall supernatural powers (e.g. it is completely immune to any form of "antimagic field" or "dead magic zone" or the like). Etc.

Another thing I hate is the idea of "antimagic". With the way the cosmos of DnD works, anti-magic would be like "anti-heat" or "anti-light" it just doesn't make sense.

I think a good change to "antimagic" is to make it a space of chaotic magic. Spell constructs are delicate, like glass or origami. Antimagical zones could then be like trying to make origami in a torrential downpour. It just isn't an environment that paper is going to survive in. But something like a plant that is make from the same material, CAN survive that, because it is more robust. That allows us to keep the concept that these things stop spells, while still allowing magical beings like demons and dragons to survive inside them.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The problem is generally that the chain of logic goes:

1) That cool fighter ability is actually supernatural.
2) Fighters are a non-supernatural (mundane) class.
3) Fighters shouldn't be able to do that cool fighter ability.

If we just accept from the start that every class is supernatural, then all these problems go away.

Put that principle in the game then, don't just assume it.

I think mundane character classes should explicitly transition to supernatural at a certain point.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Ancient dragons are obviously magical creatures. They can't exist at all without denying the laws of physics. Humans of course can do so.

I'm all for mundane developing abilities that go beyond what reality allows, but they are simply no longer mundane when that happens. I don't want high-level fighters to be dispel-able, I want them to be labeled as supernatural, because that's what they are.

I don't get why you think High-level fighters would be dispellable. Dragons aren't dispellable. Demons aren't dispellable. Ghosts aren't dispellable. Why would a high-level fighter be?

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Also, are we just going to ignore the point about the Orc?

 

[W'rkncacnter]

i think a better term for "mundane" in the context of this martial/caster debate (whose presence here is rather bizarre, considering the original topic) would be "extraordinary" - it implies something beyond the mundane but not really magical, and it has precedence in earlier editions (specifically 3e/3.5e).

so a fighter isn't (by default) "supernatural" or (after a certain point) "mundane", but rather a fighter is "extraordinary" - they're doing things normal people can do at a level they couldn't possibly imagine replicating, not because they're magical but because their skill and talent is so far beyond that of a mortal being that it's difficult to comprehend.

and if someone agrees with everything there but is adamant on calling the fighter "supernatural", then...i mean, at that point, we're just talking semantics, so unless those tags become a thing again, does it actually matter?

 

[Micah Sweet]

yes, because the non-magical, not supernaturally empowered fighter who still manages to do incredible, extraordinary things through pure strength and skill is a concept people like and want regardless of what you personally think they shouldn't be capable of without supernatural aid.

because in a world with gods and magic and spirits, the guy with just a sword, their muscles and their wits is mundane.

How? What's the explanation? Why is it so hard to stop calling the guy who can hit you with his sword without moving from 30 feet away and jump 40 feet straight up mundane? How is that mundane? Words have meaning.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Again, the game doesn't say magic facilitates anything a martial does. You can't just assume it so mundane characters can do non-mundane things without changing the verbage.

Answer me these questions.

1) Is a Level One Fighter Mundane?

2) Is a Level One Wizard Mundane?

3) Is a Golem Mundane?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't get why you think High-level fighters would be dispellable. Dragons aren't dispellable. Demons aren't dispellable. Ghosts aren't dispellable. Why would a high-level fighter be?

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Also, are we just going to ignore the point about the Orc?

Some people seem to think magic in the D&D sense and supernatural mean the same thing.

Regarding the orc, I will concede the pointvthatvthey have supernatural aspects. I don't regard that as the same as having boss actions on par with a dragon or a lich.