I haven't played a live, in-person game of any RPG in nearly 2 years. I have hopes that there will be one this Saturday. (My wife is inviting some friends who want to learn how to play.) I wonder if I can even do it in person anymore, what my performance anxiety will be like, etc.
Online Digital Tools Disappearance Risk Discussion
dirtypool
Explorer
That system runs perfectly fine without the digital tools. We never once used them and sapped all the enjoyment out of 4e that we could.
The reality as that nothing is ever likely to disappear entirely from the internet if it has significant value. The question is whether customers of your product will feel inclined to go to the pirate sites/torrents and get it that way (and if they do, some will never pay for anything again) or whether your new replacement product will be sufficiently desirable that most will move over to it - more likely if there's benefits to moving on if you were a previous customer, rather than making you but everything again.
pogre
Legend
Riding a bike - you will be great!
I used to play 4E and I never used the tools. It was fine.
Voadam
Legend
I got into 4e late in the cycle and signed up for a years subscription to the increasing add on each month to their digital tools. The tools were great. Having the monster database was really fantastic as was the character builder. One month later they switched from a buy increased additions to your tool model to a rent access month to month model. My group at that time decided they were fed up with 4e as a play experience (right when I got into it) and decided to switch to Pathfinder so I was not happy with the new WotC rent model and cancelled. I was glad they provided me with a refund. If it had been a straight continuation of the add on new stuff every month I would have strongly considered keeping the subscription to build out reference stuff I could use in other games or for potential future 4e games.
I was on rpgnow from the beginning when they said you can always download stuff you've bought later.
Dtrpg.com started off with DRM and I did not use them until that was gone.
Later rpgnow merged with dtrpg and I was unable to download a bunch of Dragonlance PDFs I bought when the license went away unannounced, then there was WotC deciding to pull all access to all WotC PDFs I had bought on dtrpg and paizo. Years later they started doing PDFs again on dtrpg, but the ones I bought on paizo are just digital records of my order if I lose those PDFs.
I play 5e but have not gotten D&D beyond.
I joined a group doing Fantasy Grounds and I have bought both a lifetime subscription and some materials in FG format.
I prefer buying PDFs I own. I prefer not to rent access in general.
I was on rpgnow from the beginning when they said you can always download stuff you've bought later.
Dtrpg.com started off with DRM and I did not use them until that was gone.
Later rpgnow merged with dtrpg and I was unable to download a bunch of Dragonlance PDFs I bought when the license went away unannounced, then there was WotC deciding to pull all access to all WotC PDFs I had bought on dtrpg and paizo. Years later they started doing PDFs again on dtrpg, but the ones I bought on paizo are just digital records of my order if I lose those PDFs.
I play 5e but have not gotten D&D beyond.
I joined a group doing Fantasy Grounds and I have bought both a lifetime subscription and some materials in FG format.
I prefer buying PDFs I own. I prefer not to rent access in general.
Here's why I say the digital tools were vital for 4e for me - and other groups I know. (Of course, if you played or currently play without the tools, I'm not trying to disregard your experience.)
How many different resources did you use to create your character? Maybe Player's Handbook 1 for your race, Player's Handbook 2 for your class, Martial Power for a few feats and powers, a few magic items from Adventurer's Vault, etc. (you see what I'm getting at). And what do you need to record to know how to use the feat or power - like a static bonus or weapon damage - or is it a paragraph of text and different effects? And when you level up, what do you need to change your bonuses on - every different attack, damage, defenses, hit points, bloodied value, healing surge value, etc.?
As a DM, you can easily adjust monster stat blocks in your head to level up or down to appropriately the challenge the party? Sort through monsters in a comprehensive database? Search for magic items across something like 10 different sources? And you have access to all the errata?
4e was designed to be played with these tools. Don't believe me, watch the original marketing videos. Without them, I think it's a clunky mess. With them, it's probably my favorite edition of D&D.
How many different resources did you use to create your character? Maybe Player's Handbook 1 for your race, Player's Handbook 2 for your class, Martial Power for a few feats and powers, a few magic items from Adventurer's Vault, etc. (you see what I'm getting at). And what do you need to record to know how to use the feat or power - like a static bonus or weapon damage - or is it a paragraph of text and different effects? And when you level up, what do you need to change your bonuses on - every different attack, damage, defenses, hit points, bloodied value, healing surge value, etc.?
As a DM, you can easily adjust monster stat blocks in your head to level up or down to appropriately the challenge the party? Sort through monsters in a comprehensive database? Search for magic items across something like 10 different sources? And you have access to all the errata?
4e was designed to be played with these tools. Don't believe me, watch the original marketing videos. Without them, I think it's a clunky mess. With them, it's probably my favorite edition of D&D.
dirtypool
Explorer
For less than the subscription price of DDI across the life of the game you could have purchased the official power card sets or for the low low price of whatever your local library charges you could have taken said books and photocopied the relevant powers necessary, printed them out and had them handy as a reminder. For even less than that you could simply have written a brief description on any of the two and half pages devoted to powers on the official character sheet.
As for monsters, multiple users spent a great deal of time compiling databases of all the monster manual creatures and made them available for free on forums like this one. So yeah, you could have done that. Or the DM could have brought his book collection and passed it around to players like we did in the days before digital tools, and some of us still do and it is completely playable.
If you feel that as a system it's so clunky it needs digital tools, is it really that good in your estimation?
Your whole argument seems to boil down to "digital tools can suddenly disappear" which sure they can. No one is disputing that, it doesn't however square with your initial point that digital tools are dangerous for the hobby because they mean games themselves can vanish when tools do. The physical media of this hobby has not replaced itself with digital tools, it has supplemented itself with digital tools. DDI disappearing didn't delete 4e pdfs that had been sold. D&D Beyond's model where you have to pay full price for their game content has not in any way slowed the massive sales of physical 5e books. Archives of Nethys has not harmed PF2e, and Demiplane isn't likely to either.
As for monsters, multiple users spent a great deal of time compiling databases of all the monster manual creatures and made them available for free on forums like this one. So yeah, you could have done that. Or the DM could have brought his book collection and passed it around to players like we did in the days before digital tools, and some of us still do and it is completely playable.
If you feel that as a system it's so clunky it needs digital tools, is it really that good in your estimation?
Your whole argument seems to boil down to "digital tools can suddenly disappear" which sure they can. No one is disputing that, it doesn't however square with your initial point that digital tools are dangerous for the hobby because they mean games themselves can vanish when tools do. The physical media of this hobby has not replaced itself with digital tools, it has supplemented itself with digital tools. DDI disappearing didn't delete 4e pdfs that had been sold. D&D Beyond's model where you have to pay full price for their game content has not in any way slowed the massive sales of physical 5e books. Archives of Nethys has not harmed PF2e, and Demiplane isn't likely to either.
Voadam
Legend
Not sure of the context here. If you want a focused discussion it would probably be helpful to restate the main point or link to the post.
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