Opinions, 3 dragons dead.

DWARF · Apr 2, 2002

Alright..... if this is true, what exactly was the reason the dragons didn't just...... run?!!!

maddman75 · Apr 2, 2002

Lord Ben said:
Well, some of those spells have fairly short durations and verbal components. I'm surprised they had the chance to cast them before the battle started.

As far as BADD goes, I read the site. Almost all their reasoning and tactics are for huge dragons with tons of arcane power. Not 200hp dragons with 1st level spells and good attacks.

Check out the Iconics - they all have good tactics and such, and none of them are over Juvenile yet. If you have some tactics for lower powered dragons, by all means share them!

And troll though it is, this kind of post is all too common. "I had a group of overpowered muchkin characters kill dragons that I played like they had just been lobotomized. What went wrong?" Grand though they may be, dragons are no match for munchkins and inexperienced DMs

noretoc · Apr 2, 2002

Ok, first this is not not a troll. Anyone who doubts that, the exit is to the left. Second, this wasn't a what went wrong post. It happened, I like the way it happned. I thought the chatracters did great. This was just to see what others thought. I had no problem with what happened. I played the dragons like I wanted them played. A bit unintelligent and angry enough to ignore common sense. Now, I asked for opinons, and pretty much got insulted. I expected better.
Now, The planning the characters did was excellent. They set up the situation as best they could. They thought there was only one dragon, which They new they could have easily defeated. They were shocked to find three. They kept it together and changed thier plan a bit. I loved it.
The dragons didn't run, because I didn't want them to. They were angry because of the death of the first one, and were in it for blood. Kind of a rage if you want to call it.
Lastly, if I had wanted, I could have probably killed all the characters with traps, setups, etc, but this was not supposed to do that. It was suposed to push them a bit past thier capabilities, and scare them, and it worked perfectly. If anyone has any real question, feel free to ask.

Cthulhu · Apr 3, 2002

OK. Fair enough. Back to your original question then.

Does it sound like great tactics and prep, or just a way overpowered party?

Way overpowered party. It certainly wasn't an issue of good tactics. In fact, tactics didn't seem to enter the picture very much at all. A bowl of Ramen noodles would have provided more of a tactical challenge than the three dragons that they fought....

Darkness · Apr 3, 2002

I had a lvl 10 rogue/assassin, a lvl 8 mage, a lvl 9 priest, and a level 7 ranger, lvl 2 fighter. They killed three blue dragons, (young adult CR10) and 2 Wyrmling dragons.

Three young adult blues (never mind the wyrmlings; they don't change too much here) = EL 13, I believe.

Ignoring the level 2 Ftr (as we should, LOL!

), the party's average level is (10+9+8+7)/4, or (rounding down) 8.

According to the DMG, they should in all likelihood have been slaughtered.

However, there were some facts that changed matters in their favor: The dragons made some griveous (sp?) tactical errors because of being driven by rage and also by underestimating their foes. Further, the party is apparently better equipped than they should be.
*shrug*

(Or did I misunderstand you and there were only three dragons total - a young adult and two wyrmlings? In that case, the EL would be 10 - a cakewalk for a level 8 party, if one considers the circumstances that favored them here.)

edit:
Oh, forgot the conclusion, LOL!

Here it is: Tactics didn't enter the equation at all - just an overpowered party and stupid opponents.

Wolfspider · Apr 3, 2002

Cthulhu, I...ahem...couldn't agree with you more.

hong · Apr 3, 2002

Cthulhu said:
Way overpowered party.

Actually, it sounds like pretty much what he himself said: stupid dragon.

Wolfspider · Apr 3, 2002

hong said:
And really, there's nothing wrong with stupid dragons, especially if you don't want the party resorting to Ghost Recon, guerrilla-style tactics every time they fight one.)

You're absolutely right, hong. But it was the original poster who brought up the idea of tactics to begin with, so it's only logical to bring tactics into the discussion.

Speaking of Ghost Recon, I bought the Desert Seige expansion this weekend. So cool!

reapersaurus · Apr 3, 2002

noretoc said:
Ok, first this is not not a troll. Anyone who doubts that, the exit is to the left. Second, this wasn't a what went wrong post. It happened, I like the way it happned. I thought the chatracters did great. This was just to see what others thought. I had no problem with what happened. I played the dragons like I wanted them played. A bit unintelligent and angry enough to ignore common sense. Now, I asked for opinons, and pretty much got insulted. I expected better.
Now, The planning the characters did was excellent. They set up the situation as best they could. They thought there was only one dragon, which They new they could have easily defeated. They were shocked to find three. They kept it together and changed thier plan a bit. I loved it.
The dragons didn't run, because I didn't want them to. They were angry because of the death of the first one, and were in it for blood. Kind of a rage if you want to call it.
Lastly, if I had wanted, I could have probably killed all the characters with traps, setups, etc, but this was not supposed to do that. It was suposed to push them a bit past thier capabilities, and scare them, and it worked perfectly. If anyone has any real question, feel free to ask.

Ya.
I've got a question.

Where did you get your DM card?
Out of a cracker-jack box?

This is one of the most eggregious examples of a complete insult to a dragon's abilities and personality i've yet read on this board, and the hilarious thing is:
You think it was a good encounter!

It's like a bunch of guys sitting around, making fart noises, and convincing themselves that it's good comedy.

Yuo want feedback, you got it.

You are under the impression that your party used good tactics.
How is using Spell Focus to jack up the saves using good "tactics"?
It's already been overdone to death, and the fact that you think it's good stategy shows your inexperience and inability to deal with the power levels of 3E, especially with regards to mages.

What's worse, though, is your insistence that the dragins would be angry and reckless, even AFTER one was killed.
Geez, they might as well have been high-CR wombats for all the smarts you had 'em use.

How old were they, man?
You think this is the first group of adventurers they've encountered?
Even if that's the ridiculous case, for some reason, you made these dragons completely ignorant of the concept of magic in the world and how it can be used.

Meanwhile, you let the PC's have complete knowledge of the dragon's strenghts and weaknesses, and gave them custom magic-items, custom invented spells and prep time to waltz up and slaughter the idiot-dragons.

Did these dragons get trucked into your adventure in a short bus?

What explains them acting so ridiculously suicidal?
They could see their attacks were being completely ineffective, yet they stood toe-to-toe with overwehlming power.

Since when are dragons so loyal that they will sacrifice themselves in a vain attempt for revenge?!
Ya, that's a classic trait of dragons.

Please... do us all a favor, and resist the next time you want to debase the concept of a dragon by including them in your game the next time.