Optimized and Non-Optimized in the same group.

ForeverSlayer

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Do you find it difficult when you have a mixture of optimized and non-optimized characters in the same party? We have had some difficulties with two or three people being optimized with another four that are not and of course the optimized are ripping through the encounters and making the nons seem like a drop in the bucket.
 

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We had a mix of char opers and non oped people in my last group.

While the char opers did well, and were an obvious boon to the party's total damage- they didn't seem to obviate the need for the other characters, as I've seen them do in the past.
 

Do you find it difficult when you have a mixture of optimized and non-optimized characters in the same party? We have had some difficulties with two or three people being optimized with another four that are not and of course the optimized are ripping through the encounters and making the nons seem like a drop in the bucket.

It's not too bad if their roles don't overlap. For example, having two optimized strikers and an optimized defender is fine if you bring along a "regular" leader and controller.

I'm mostly noticed frustration when for example you have two strikers with similar builds, and one is optimized much moreso than the other. Sometimes, a better solution to that is to make sure you have characters that have distinct roles/types. (even if you separate into a ranged striker and a melee striker)
 

Well, if you have 2 'halves' of the party that are at really different optimization levels, then yes, it could be a thorny issue. I've had one or two optimized characters in a party of 5 or 6 PCs and it didn't seem to cause big problems. I'd say the worst issue was the optimizers were a bit impatient with the other players not PLAYING as tactically as they did. Everyone still got to do their stuff though and they didn't dominate encounters, just did a bit more effective attacks and etc.

One thing that I'd think about is how much other non-combat aspects of the characters overall matter. Not all optimized characters are hapless out of combat by any means, but if they are REALLY optimized they won't have spent any resources on anything much else. The more generalist characters could easily be a bit more capable in situations outside of a melee.

This is one reason I regularly keep putting the party in situations where using skills and utilities and misc sorts of items can really make a big difference and the stakes are pretty high. It tends to discourage the 'all-in-for-combat' sort of character builds. That way you will STILL have people that are better builders and have an edge in combat, but they will probably have to use a couple feat slots and maybe a power or two for other stuff, which can at least hold them back enough to keep things more balanced.

Of course you could also give the weaker players some extra help with a bit nicer item or whatnot. I don't know how that will play with your group, but if it brings people a bit closer to parity it should work. The optimizers are still BETTER, but not so much that they do 2/3 of all the damage.
 

It's not too bad if their roles don't overlap. For example, having two optimized strikers and an optimized defender is fine if you bring along a "regular" leader and controller.

I'm mostly noticed frustration when for example you have two strikers with similar builds, and one is optimized much moreso than the other. Sometimes, a better solution to that is to make sure you have characters that have distinct roles/types. (even if you separate into a ranged striker and a melee striker)

Yep, this is where I've seen problems. When you have an optimized vs. non-optimized in the same role, in the same party. The non-optimizer tends to get overshadowed a bit.

It's like one is Batman and one is Robin... hey Robin's no schmuck against the antagonists... but he ain't Batman either.
 

Well, if you have 2 'halves' of the party that are at really different optimization levels, then yes, it could be a thorny issue. I've had one or two optimized characters in a party of 5 or 6 PCs and it didn't seem to cause big problems. I'd say the worst issue was the optimizers were a bit impatient with the other players not PLAYING as tactically as they did. Everyone still got to do their stuff though and they didn't dominate encounters, just did a bit more effective attacks and etc.

One thing that I'd think about is how much other non-combat aspects of the characters overall matter. Not all optimized characters are hapless out of combat by any means, but if they are REALLY optimized they won't have spent any resources on anything much else. The more generalist characters could easily be a bit more capable in situations outside of a melee.

This is one reason I regularly keep putting the party in situations where using skills and utilities and misc sorts of items can really make a big difference and the stakes are pretty high. It tends to discourage the 'all-in-for-combat' sort of character builds. That way you will STILL have people that are better builders and have an edge in combat, but they will probably have to use a couple feat slots and maybe a power or two for other stuff, which can at least hold them back enough to keep things more balanced.

Of course you could also give the weaker players some extra help with a bit nicer item or whatnot. I don't know how that will play with your group, but if it brings people a bit closer to parity it should work. The optimizers are still BETTER, but not so much that they do 2/3 of all the damage.

The problem I see with this is that out of combat abilities are much more reliant on the class you pick than how much or less one comb at optimizes in 4e.. A player could combat optimize a Ranger, Rogue, Wizard or Cleric and still have way more out of combat options (extra skills and free rituals) than a Fighter or Barbarian, unless he invests heavily (optimizes) out of combat abilities.
 

we had some problems... in the first game (the mods h1-e3) we rolled for stats...and that lead to a real problem...


optimized defender eledrin swordmage (about 40pt buy...20 dex and int starting...and a 17 con)

optimized striker ranger elfi (bow) (about 28pt character)

tried to optimized leader Warlord genesi (14pt character)

un op striker shadir ki rouge (20pt character)

un op defender human fighter (21pt characgter)

un op controler eladrin wizard (21pt character)


at heroic it wasn't so bad... around level 13 we noticed a problem when the rouge action pointed with bonus from the warlord, spent 2 dailys and a magic item power...and did 137pt of damage to an elite... he did a little dance, and explained it was the best damage he had done the entire campaign... the next round the ranger used an encounter power to drop a target, got a free action point, and used it to sped a second encounter power... then slamed his fist at how bad his dice roll was for damage... when added up his 2 encounters dis 134 damage...

the rouge almost wuite thegame at that moment.

at the same moment we had the fighter and swordmag having vastly diffrent effectivness...




now this week we still argue over how bad that was... the ranger player still insists that is perfectly fine... for 1 player to do bad and do the same amount of damage as another striker doing there best...
 

It's only a problem if you're the only unoptimized character in the group.

(Raises hand)

I took painful ribbing, for ten levels, about how my 'Striker' was doing controller damage, to only one creature.
 

Yep, this is where I've seen problems. When you have an optimized vs. non-optimized in the same role, in the same party. The non-optimizer tends to get overshadowed a bit.

It's like one is Batman and one is Robin... hey Robin's no schmuck against the antagonists... but he ain't Batman either.

Would you say that's a big problem though?

I can forgive some degree of latitude for someone willing to spend some time optimizing as long as it doesn't completely destroy the need for the other non optimized players...

I remember some older edition games where the rest of the party would kind of just be able to stand on the sidelines and wait until the optimized player killed everything.

THAT I cannot stand. It makes planning adventures a nightmare.
 

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