Orb of Force vs Antimagic Field

[Plane Sailing]

For myself, if I considered using the "Orbs of Miscategorised School" IMC they would all be Evocation spells and stopped normally by AMF. The idea of Conjuration(Creation) making a permanent orb of force seems ludicrous to me.

I know that an AMF cannot penetrate or affect an existing wall of force, but you can't cast a wall of force into an AMF if I recall correctly.

The problem comes when trying to integrate a poorly thought out spell into the existing system!

Cheers

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would hope that the Line of Effect rules would actually come into play here.

You need line of effect to where you create an effect. I can't cast Create Water to cause water to appear inside an AMF. But I can cast Create Water outside the AMF, then carry the water into the AMF.

The spell secifically states that the Orb travels from your hand... so if your hand is already outside the AMF, you have line of effect to where it is created. AMF blocks line of effect for spells... but by the time the Orb reaches the AMF, it is no longer a spell, but rather the non-magical effect of an instantaneous conjuration [creation] spell.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

You need line of effect to where you create an effect. I can't cast Create Water to cause water to appear inside an AMF. But I can cast Create Water outside the AMF, then carry the water into the AMF.

The spell secifically states that the Orb travels from your hand... so if your hand is already outside the AMF, you have line of effect to where it is created. AMF blocks line of effect for spells... but by the time the Orb reaches the AMF, it is no longer a spell, but rather the non-magical effect of an instantaneous conjuration [creation] spell.

Well, maybe.

Acid Arrow, for example, travels 400+ feet. There is no way you can throw anything that far (even in a fantasy world), so I would have no problem ruling that magic is propelling the Orb. Once it gets to the AMF, no more propulsion, it drops to the ground.

In fact, I have no problem ruling that although the Orb starts in your hand, it is not fully formed until it reaches the target. The Instantaneous of it is the same as the Instantaneous of Fireball (effectively). If you rule that Orbs get through, I suspect that you will have to rule that the bead of Fireball gets through as well (it just doesn't explode?).

But, it would be nice to find some rules support for a position that the magic is propelling the Orb.

 

[thorian]

Well, maybe.

Acid Arrow, for example, travels 400+ feet. There is no way you can throw anything that far (even in a fantasy world), so I would have no problem ruling that magic is propelling the Orb. Once it gets to the AMF, no more propulsion, it drops to the ground.

You can also think of it like this -- the magic provides the initial propulsion, much like being shot from a gun, but after that it is just physics. The magic does not need to propel the projectile for its entire flight path.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Acid Arrow, for example, travels 400+ feet. There is no way you can throw anything that far (even in a fantasy world), so I would have no problem ruling that magic is propelling the Orb. Once it gets to the AMF, no more propulsion, it drops to the ground.

How do you rule using a +1 Bow of Distance to shoot at someone 130 feet away who is standing in an Antimagic Field?

The longbow has a range increment of 100 feet. Normally, someone 130 feet away means a -2 penalty.

A Longbow of Distance has a range increment of 150 feet. Someone 130 feet away means no penalty.

Does the +1 enhancement bonus to the attack roll apply? What about the +1 enhancement bonus to damage?

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You could sell used Orbs of Force as children's toys!

Hmm, interesting. Would they be considered ammunition and thus be destroyed upon a successful hit? Those that miss would have a 50% chance of being lost, but you could still have some.

 

[andargor]

Oh, no, not this discussion again...



Andargor

 

[KarinsDad]

Thanne. The answer to your original question is no.


"Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence."

This does not state that the result of all conjuration creation spells with an instantaneous duration lasts indefinitely. It states that objects or creatures created with an instantaneous duration lasts indefinitely.

Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Force, and Sound are effects (or energy) in the game, they are not objects (nor are they creatures).

DMG page 302 has an entire section on "Acid Effects".

DMG page 295 talks about "force effects" on incorporeal creatures, not "force objects".

PHB page 165: Acid, fire, cold, electricity and sonic are listed under the "Energy Attacks" section, not the "Object Attacks" section.

None of the Orbs are objects in the game. None of them have hit points.

PHB page 165

"Hit Points: An object's hit point total depends on what it is made of and how big it is. When an object's hit point total reaches zero, it's ruined."


In order for the Instantaneous Conjuration Creation Indefinite rule to take precedence, you have to prove that Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Force, and Sound are objects (or creatures). If they are not objects or creatures, that sentence does not apply to them. Just because it is in the Conjuration Creation section does not mean that it applies to all Conjuration Creation spells. It only applies to those it discusses.


Or to look at this another way:

What is a "globe of force"?

I've never heard of one. What is it?

What is a "globe of sound"?

What is a "globe of acid"?

I've never heard of any of these as normal creations.

So, they must be magical creations. If they are magical creations, then Antimagic Field can affect them. In fact, these make sense as magical creations. They do not make sense at all as normal creations. If they are normal creations, they would immediately obey the normal "laws of game physics". For example, Electricity would ground itself, Fire would dissipate as it travels through the air, Sound would make a big noise at the location it is started at, etc.

So, these by definition must be magical. Sound does not move 40 feat in one direction only and damage objects or creatures. Sound emanates from its starting location. Force effects in the game are always magical.

Granted, Antimagic Field does not affect all magical creations (like Golems), but Orbs are not called out in the Antimagic Field spell as exceptions. If they are not called out as exceptions, they are not.


A few final points on this:

1) Game Balance: Allowing damaging spells to bypass Antimagic Field defeats the purpose of AMF. ONLY the magic stated within the AMF spell itself can and should actually bypass it. Period. Orbs and Acid Arrows are not mentioned in the spell.

2) We all know what should happen with an Orb and an Antimagic Field. Trying to squeeze out a bypass rule out of If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence. is a bit of sophistry, especially since we all know they screwed up and gave Evocation spells to Conjurers.

Yet again, another non-core book comes up with the Bigger, Better, Badder syndrome.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This does not state that the result of all conjuration creation spells with an instantaneous duration lasts indefinitely. It states that objects or creatures created with an instantaneous duration lasts indefinitely.

But it also states that what Conjuration [Creation] spells do is create objects or creatures.

Orb of Force is a Conjuration [Creation] spell; therefore what it creates - a globe of force - is an object or creature, and thus lasts indefinitely.

If you're going to change the definition of Conjuration [Creation] to add "or globe of force" to what the school can create, consistency requires you to add "or globe of force" to the list of what lasts indefinitely when created by a C[C] spell with an instantaneous duration.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

But it also states that what Conjuration [Creation] spells do is create objects or creatures.

Orb of Force is a Conjuration [Creation] spell; therefore what it creates - a globe of force - is an object or creature, and thus lasts indefinitely.

If you're going to change the definition of Conjuration [Creation] to add "or globe of force" to what the school can create, consistency requires you to add "or globe of force" to the list of what lasts indefinitely when created by a C[C] spell with an instantaneous duration.

I didn't change it to include more things. WotC did.

For example, Acid Arrow or Create Magic Tattoo, or the Orbs.

Based on the definition of Conjuration Creation, these spells are mis-schooled. I cannot help it if WotC made a mistake and starting throwing Abjuration and Evocation effects into Conjuration::Creation magic.


The point is, we all know that the intent of Antimagic Field is to stop all magic unless listed otherwise.

If you take a literal reading of that sentence that this only affects objects or creatures, you close the loophole of Orbs getting through Antimagic Field.


This does not address the loophole of spells which should not be Conjuration Creation getting into that school.

For all I know, WotC might change the definition to:

"Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature or effect in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence."

So far, they haven't done so.

Hence, although the spells do not belong in that school, they are there and we have to live with that.

However, that does not mean they get all of the advantages of that school because the sentence you are using to give them that advantage does not apply to them because they are not creatures or objects.

You can try to squeeze them in, but literally, it is not allowed.

Just because WotC effectively added or effect into the first sentence does not mean that we can randomly add it to the sentence "If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature or effect is merely assembled through magic."


Loophole closed. And, closed according to a very strict and literal reading of what is written, not what is implied (i.e. that all conjuration creation instantaneous effects last indefinitely).

You'll note that the previous sentence for non-instantaneous duration states "holds the creation together", it does not state "object or creature". From a literal point of view, these are two different things. If the instantaneous sentence said that, we could not close the loophole.