D&D 5E Orcs and Drow in YOUR game (poll */comments +)

[Azzy]

Nope, that one came later. It was a never published adventure mentioned in some articles in the Dragon Magazine. Can't remember which one though and I lost all my copies in a fire years ago...

Huh? Temple of the Frog was originally printed in Book 5: Blackmoor.

 

[Lanefan]

You MIGHT have a point if a) I said or were saying that D&D can't have deities, b) clerics in B/X, BECMI, etc. had the same language, c) existing were the same thing as meddling, or d) something else that also isn't a part of my retort to Helldritch.

Someone - not sure now if it was you or someone else - seemed to be trying to say that deities (particularly meddling ones) weren't a foundational part of D&D, and I was attempting to point out how that stance doesn't really hold up under scrutiny.

Wait... I thought we weren't supposed to appeal to anything other than the PHB/DMG/MM. Has that changed now or am I just the one not allowed to?

Fair point.

I remembered seeing the odds of divine intervention being written out somewhere - thought it was the DMG, turns out it was DDG - and just wanted to throw it into the mix for consideration. And you're quite right, DDG was optional and even fairly clearly says so within itself; but I very much suspect its guidelines echo how the majority of games in the wild were played.

 

[Maxperson]

Someone - not sure now if it was you or someone else - seemed to be trying to say that deities (particularly meddling ones) weren't a foundational part of D&D, and I was attempting to point out how that stance doesn't really hold up under scrutiny.

Fair point.

I remembered seeing the odds of divine intervention being written out somewhere - thought it was the DMG, turns out it was DDG - and just wanted to throw it into the mix for consideration. And you're quite right, DDG was optional and even fairly clearly says so within itself; but I very much suspect its guidelines echo how the majority of games in the wild were played.

Divine intervention is mentioned a few times in the 1e DMG. The chances of success aren't given, but it's clearly something that is part of the game.

 

[Azzy]

Someone - not sure now if it was you or someone else - seemed to be trying to say that deities (particularly meddling ones) weren't a foundational part of D&D, and I was attempting to point out how that stance doesn't really hold up under scrutiny.

Helldritch said that meddling gods were the "basic premise of D&D" in response to me saying that not all settings have meddling or existing gods (). I responded to him that that that's not the basic premise (or even a premise) of D&D.

You can have all the meddling gods you want (Forgotten Realms does so in double time), but.... Gods in D&D run a spectrum from Forgotten Realms (gods are ubiquitous and meddling with everything) to Dragonlance and Greyhawk (only certain gods get to meddle) to Eberron (the gods may be real... or not, you'll never know) to Mystara (no gods, but instead immortals—but clerics don't need to worship them anyway)
to Dark Sun (no gods). D&D has even supported clerics without gods (B/X, BECMI, and 2e The Complete Priest's Handbook, 3.x, onwards). I think it's safe to say that gods—existing or not and meddling or not—is a setting-level dial, do a game-level one.

 

[Lyxen]

Premise. I don't think that word means what you think it does.

Then, please instruct me. Show me that having settings without gods are more than very rare exceptions out of all the D&D publication history.

Also, see B/X, BECMI, etc. for clerics without gods.

You can call them "immortals", but they are exactly like gods with another name (and mostly to avoid shocking americans about people playing "god(s)"), and they are certainly meddling.

My bad, I thought the class was supplementary. Must have mixed it up with the thief. I'm thinking per-publication, where the cleric was derived from Sir Fang.

No worries, but it's not only a question of class, there have always been EHP as adversaries in OD&D, these are priests who imply a god in the real world as well as in most fantasy settings.

 

[Helldritch]

Helldritch said that meddling gods were the "basic premise of D&D" in response to me saying that not all settings have meddling or existing gods (). I responded to him that that that's not the basic premise (or even a premise) of D&D.

You can have all the meddling gods you want (Forgotten Realms does so in double time), but.... Gods in D&D run a spectrum from Forgotten Realms (gods are ubiquitous and meddling with everything) to Dragonlance and Greyhawk (only certain gods get to meddle) to Eberron (the gods may be real... or not, you'll never know) to Mystara (no gods, but instead immortals—but clerics don't need to worship them anyway)
to Dark Sun (no gods). D&D has even supported clerics without gods (B/X, BECMI, and 2e The Complete Priest's Handbook, 3.x, onwards). I think it's safe to say that gods—existing or not and meddling or not—is a setting-level dial, do a game-level one.

Which in turn ignored my answering to an other poster about gods not doing anything and could not explain why some races were typically/always evil.
And I did say that though the gods in 5ed was entirely setting dependant, that in some setting it was perfectly acceptable but it would not be the basic assumption. You claimed that gods were not assumed since the birth of D&D which is far from the truth. At the time only two gaming worlds existed. Greyhawk and Blackmoor. In both, the gods are there. In both they are interfering either with their clerics or directly.

It was in 2ed that the notion of godless worlds started. I will remind you that in Darksun, priests are "worshipping" elemental forces of air, earth, fire and water. You have to rely on "splat" books to prove your claim that it was way earlier than a 5ed core thing that cleric could get spells without the help of a god. The only official setting that was allowing philosophical clerics was, strangely enough, Planescape where a belief could become a reality.

 

[delericho]

It was in 2ed that the notion of godless worlds started. I will remind you that in Darksun, priests are "worshipping" elemental forces of air, earth, fire and water. You have to rely on "splat" books to prove your claim that it was way earlier than a 5ed core thing that cleric could get spells without the help of a god. The only official setting that was allowing philosophical clerics was, strangely enough, Planescape where a belief could become a reality.

Spelljammer features the philosophy of The Path and the Way, created largely to deal with the problem of sphere-travelling Clerics losing access to their deity as they travel.

 

[Azzy]

Then, please instruct me. Show me that having settings without gods are more than very rare exceptions out of all the D&D publication history.

Are you even familiar with the word "premise"?

You can call them "immortals", but they are exactly like gods with another name (and mostly to avoid shocking americans about people playing "god(s)"), and they are certainly meddling.

Nary an Immortal in sight.

 

[Azzy]

Which in turn ignored my answering to an other poster about gods not doing anything and could not explain why some races were typically/always evil.
And I did say that though the gods in 5ed was entirely setting dependant, that in some setting it was perfectly acceptable but it would not be the basic assumption. You claimed that gods were not assumed since the birth of D&D which is far from the truth.

Citation needed. I've only refuted your claim that meddling gods is "the basic premise of D&D". Perhaps your nonsequiters and ever-moving goalposts has obscured that.

At the time only two gaming worlds existed. Greyhawk and Blackmoor. In both, the gods are there. In both they are interfering either with their clerics or directly.

It was in 2ed that the notion of godless worlds started. I will remind you that in Darksun, priests are "worshipping" elemental forces of air, earth, fire and water. You have to rely on "splat" books to prove your claim that it was way earlier than a 5ed core thing that cleric could get spells without the help of a god. The only official setting that was allowing philosophical clerics was, strangely enough, Planescape where a belief could become a reality.

What, prove my claim that your claim that meddling gods is "the basic premise of D&D" is false? No, already done that.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

So what do these clerics have to do with orcs and drow in your games? This derail has now gone for several pages, could you perhaps stop?