Orcs w/o Light Sensitivity: Worth a +1 LA?
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Lord Zardoz
Explorer
Quartz said:
It really depends on two things. What level are you starting the game out at and how prone are your players to optimizing their builds? For someone prone to optimizing their characters and when using a point buy, +4 Str is huge. Consider it the same as having a human Barbarian in a perpetual rage, since that is what it works out to. At the lower levels, say up to level 6 or 7, a fighter with a huge strength output will be very dominant. Consider this:
Elite Array: 15,14,13,13,10,10
A Barbarian laying those stats out would probably leave them mostly alone, perhaps dropping the 14 on Con instead of Dex. Either way, using a Great Axe, a 1st level human Barbarian would look like this, ignoring feats:
15 Str Human Barbarian:
Normal: GreatAxe, +3 Atk, 1d12+3; Raged: GreatAxe +5 Atk, 1d12+6
19 Str Orc Barbarian:
Normal: GreatAxe, +5 Atk, 1d12+6; Raged: GreatAxe +7 Atk, 1d12+9
If your player uses a point buy and kicks Str up to 18 to start, the Human Barbarian would start at the same damage output as the Elite Array Orc.
18 Str Human Barbarian:
Normal: GreatAxe +5 Atk, 1d12+6; Raged: GreatAxe +7 Atk, 1d12+9
22 Str Orc Barbarian:
Normal: GreatAxe +7 Atk, 1d12+9; Raged: GreatAxe +9 Atk, 1d12+12
The signifigance? The PHB more or less assumes that your players are created with the Elite array layout. And while a 22 Str Orc Barbarian will have unimpressive stats for the rest, the damage output ends up well beyond the bounds expected by the rules.
- At +7 to hit to start, our Barbarian friend is unlikely to miss anything not wearing Heavy Armour. Raged, he is going to hit things he should have no business hitting.
- At +9 damage, the Orc is going to be one shotting anything with 1 HD or less, and is probably going to kill most 3 HD monster in one shot unless he rolls low. At +12 damage when raged, 3 HD is an easy kill. Once he obtains cleave, he can drop bugbears reasonably frequently.
- The maxed out Orc has a damage edge of 6 points on an Elite Array human, and nearly twice the attack bonus when raged. Non Fighter types may be in the same ballpark if customized. Spell casters wont catch up for quite a bit longer.
This has one of two results. You can try to account for the presence of this character, by upping the difficulties of the opposed encounters. This will in turn result in probable TPK's, because if you do mange to drop the Barbarian, the surviving members of the party are probably unable to handle the encounter. The alternative is to try to ignore the presence of the character. This will result in the Orc dominating combat encounters until about 6th or 7th level, which is about when you will start throwing monsters at the players that cannot be taken down in 1 or 2 shots by the Orc, and when the spell casters start to fully hit their stride. Even then, the character will be unusually dominant.
Maxed out Half Orcs are also surprisingly dominant, but the difference is about 3 points of damage and 1 point of attack, which works out to be just enough to make 2 HD opponents a bit more viable, and is in turn only 1 point of damage and to hit better than a human with similar base stats. If you keep the Orc's Dazzled penalty in daylight, the Orc is nearly identical in damage output to a Half-Orc, unless you spend a great deal of time in dungeon type environments.
Anyway, if your starting out at a higher level, you might be able to justify it.
END COMMUNICATION
nittanytbone
First Post
I agree with Lord Zardoz's analysis.
The penalties to mental stats are inconsequential to a player who builds a strong martial character using the orc race.
Sure, an orc wizard won't be overpowered... But the worst (and most likely!) case is an orc melee bruiser, and as Lord Zardoz shows, that is a significant power jump.
I would either use the half-orc mechanical rules and call it an orc, or retain the LA. Perhaps use LA buyoff if it really bugs you.
The penalties to mental stats are inconsequential to a player who builds a strong martial character using the orc race.
Sure, an orc wizard won't be overpowered... But the worst (and most likely!) case is an orc melee bruiser, and as Lord Zardoz shows, that is a significant power jump.
I would either use the half-orc mechanical rules and call it an orc, or retain the LA. Perhaps use LA buyoff if it really bugs you.
eamon
Explorer
I'd allow it. The power jump doesn't come without cost; and an orc's mental deficiency costs him heavily in saving throws and options. His low int also bans the attractive combat expertise line.
As long as his weaknesses are relevant in play (weak saves and fewer options), it's OK.
As long as his weaknesses are relevant in play (weak saves and fewer options), it's OK.
nittanytbone
First Post
eamon said:
Would you allow a race that granted a +4 bonus to INT along with a -2 penalty to STR and WIS? Perhaps with small size?
After all, the character will have weaker will saves and lower carrying capacity, plus all the damage output problems of small size! They'd have a tough time taking the Power Attack feat chain (limiting options), too.
But they'd make a great wizard.
Same for the orc barbarian/fighter type. Penalties aren't necessarily liabilities all the time!
nittanytbone
First Post
Not really.
ORCS:
* +4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.
* An orc’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon.
* Favored Class: Barbarian.
The STR bonus is great. The only significant penalty from the mental ability scores is that to WIS, as it imposes a -1 to WIS checks. I don't think that's a huge deal. Barbarian types will either (A) take steps to shore up their will save such as via multiclassing or feat selection or (B) they will not, and it will be weak. A -1 penalty isn't a big deal to a Barbarian who's dipped into a strong WILL class for 2-3 levels (knight comes to mind as a base class), picked up Iron Will + Steadfast Determination (or whatever the PHB2 feat that allows two rerolls is called), and has purchased a cloak of resistance +1 or some potions of Protection from Evil (breaks mind control and gives save bonuses).
Darkvision is great.
The land speed is standard.
Light sensitivity has been discussed. Sometimes its a penalty, sometimes not. It becomes much less of a factor in the mid or high levels when a well statted out buffed fighter hits on nearly anything but a 1 anyways. The barb will just adjust their power attack by one if outside.
Bonus Language - standard for a demihuman.
The race also grants access to some flavorful PrCs/feats such as the Orc paragon. They're not great but they are out there.
I'd say this is more than on par with any of the monstrous LA+0 races such as goblins or kobolds. Bear in mind, monstrous races are intended to be a bit less powerful than their PC equivalents! If it really irks you, grant a +4 racial bonus to Intimidate, Survival, or perhaps some STR based check (just one of them, not all of the above!).
If your player wants a LA+0 option, let them use the half-orc mechanics while calling themselves a full orc.
ORCS:
* +4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.
* An orc’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon.
* Favored Class: Barbarian.
The STR bonus is great. The only significant penalty from the mental ability scores is that to WIS, as it imposes a -1 to WIS checks. I don't think that's a huge deal. Barbarian types will either (A) take steps to shore up their will save such as via multiclassing or feat selection or (B) they will not, and it will be weak. A -1 penalty isn't a big deal to a Barbarian who's dipped into a strong WILL class for 2-3 levels (knight comes to mind as a base class), picked up Iron Will + Steadfast Determination (or whatever the PHB2 feat that allows two rerolls is called), and has purchased a cloak of resistance +1 or some potions of Protection from Evil (breaks mind control and gives save bonuses).
Darkvision is great.
The land speed is standard.
Light sensitivity has been discussed. Sometimes its a penalty, sometimes not. It becomes much less of a factor in the mid or high levels when a well statted out buffed fighter hits on nearly anything but a 1 anyways. The barb will just adjust their power attack by one if outside.
Bonus Language - standard for a demihuman.
The race also grants access to some flavorful PrCs/feats such as the Orc paragon. They're not great but they are out there.
I'd say this is more than on par with any of the monstrous LA+0 races such as goblins or kobolds. Bear in mind, monstrous races are intended to be a bit less powerful than their PC equivalents! If it really irks you, grant a +4 racial bonus to Intimidate, Survival, or perhaps some STR based check (just one of them, not all of the above!).
If your player wants a LA+0 option, let them use the half-orc mechanics while calling themselves a full orc.
Andion Isurand
First Post
Orcs get automatic proficency with the Javelin and the Greataxe. This is normally overwritten by the fact they usually enter into a martial class.
Not saying it will do much for the orc, but if you want to make racial weapon proficiencies stand out in these cases, you could use the Weapon Groups varient in UA. That way they end up with proficiency with two more weapon groups than what their chosen class would normally give them. Of course, this would also affect elves and other races with automatic proficency as well.
I like Weapon Groups, because they help martial characters who specialize, better adapt to treasure found. This usually helps characters that are not primary casters. I also like the fact that the varient gives fighters the most weapon proficiencies, more than all other high BAB classes. It also affords the sorcerer more than the wizard. Only a particle in a positive direction, but every bit counts.
# Weapon Proficiency: Orcs gain Weapon Group (Axes) and Weapon Group (Slings and Thrown Weapons) as bonus feats.
///////////////////////////////////////////
Oh, and as far as my current version of half-orcs goes, this is where it stands:
# +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
A half-orc's starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character's score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
# Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
# Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
# Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
# When figuring the number of skill points gained at each level, treat the half-orc's intelligence score as being 2 points higher than its actual value.
# +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks.
# Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
# Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
# Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-orc takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.
( ! ) This puts the skill point totals for a half-orc, halfway between that of a human and an orc without having to choose between intelligence or charisma. (Plus, the revised verbage matches how my humans are written.) The change in favored class, also makes the half-orc feel more human.
Not saying it will do much for the orc, but if you want to make racial weapon proficiencies stand out in these cases, you could use the Weapon Groups varient in UA. That way they end up with proficiency with two more weapon groups than what their chosen class would normally give them. Of course, this would also affect elves and other races with automatic proficency as well.
I like Weapon Groups, because they help martial characters who specialize, better adapt to treasure found. This usually helps characters that are not primary casters. I also like the fact that the varient gives fighters the most weapon proficiencies, more than all other high BAB classes. It also affords the sorcerer more than the wizard. Only a particle in a positive direction, but every bit counts.
# Weapon Proficiency: Orcs gain Weapon Group (Axes) and Weapon Group (Slings and Thrown Weapons) as bonus feats.
///////////////////////////////////////////
Oh, and as far as my current version of half-orcs goes, this is where it stands:
# +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
A half-orc's starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character's score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
# Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
# Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
# Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
# When figuring the number of skill points gained at each level, treat the half-orc's intelligence score as being 2 points higher than its actual value.
# +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks.
# Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
# Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
# Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-orc takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.
( ! ) This puts the skill point totals for a half-orc, halfway between that of a human and an orc without having to choose between intelligence or charisma. (Plus, the revised verbage matches how my humans are written.) The change in favored class, also makes the half-orc feel more human.
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