D&D 5E Orcus vs Raven Queen: The saga

[jgsugden]

I recently moved, and when I did so I decided to reset my homebrew world and rerun the adventures I'd run there for a new crowd. When I did so, I did a major overhaul of the Gods and replaced them with a combination of Dawn War, Greyhawk, and Homebrew Gods. I moved the Raven Queen to a central position in the lore as I love her role in the 4E mythos and evolved it.

She is the only God to reside on the Prime Material Plane, in a Temple on the South Pole of a world hundreds of times larger than Earth. She stole her Godhood by slaying the God of Death and then distributing his power into the mortal races. By doing so, she created the God Touched, which are the humanoids that benefit from the advancement rules, death saves, etc.. of the core D&D rules. Other humanoids can't really advance in level, or get death saves, etc... It is highly ambiguous as to whether her Godhood is a curse as punishment for her slaying the prior God of Death, or if she took Godhood as a prize when she felled the prior God of Death. She does not communicate, even via spell, with anyone, so much of her thinking and methods is not understood.

 

[challa]

This is pretty variable based on lore, setting, and how much nonsense you are willing to put up with. Both deities have had multiple incarnations in the games so it is tough to have an "official" show down.
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That being said, I'd bet that Orcus wins by virtue of being the older and more directly powerful deity. The Raven Queen is actually fairly limited (in my understanding) since she is not really the goddess of "death" but rather of the transition between life and death. So her actual portfolio of power is pretty limited. Factor in that she is an ascended mortal, one that is feared by most mortals, and not really loved by her fellow deities and I don't see her being a particularly strong hitter in the context of the deity power structure.

She may stand against Orcus, but that doesn't mean she can take him 1v1.

 

[dave2008]

This is pretty variable based on lore, setting, and how much nonsense you are willing to put up with. Both deities have had multiple incarnations in the games so it is tough to have an "official" show down.

That being said, I'd bet that Orcus wins by virtue of being the older and more directly powerful deity. The Raven Queen is actually fairly limited (in my understanding) since she is not really the goddess of "death" but rather of the transition between life and death. So her actual portfolio of power is pretty limited. Factor in that she is an ascended mortal, one that is feared by most mortals, and not really loved by her fellow deities and I don't see her being a particularly strong hitter in the context of the deity power structure.

She may stand against Orcus, but that doesn't mean she can take him 1v1.

In the lore of 5e she is probably a lesser goddess (I don't think it is specifically stated) and that would mean she has power on par with Tiamat at CR 30. So it is likely she is stronger than Orcus 1v1 as he is only CR 26 I think.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This is pretty variable based on lore, setting, and how much nonsense you are willing to put up with. Both deities have had multiple incarnations in the games so it is tough to have an "official" show down.

That being said, I'd bet that Orcus wins by virtue of being the older and more directly powerful deity. The Raven Queen is actually fairly limited (in my understanding) since she is not really the goddess of "death" but rather of the transition between life and death. So her actual portfolio of power is pretty limited. Factor in that she is an ascended mortal, one that is feared by most mortals, and not really loved by her fellow deities and I don't see her being a particularly strong hitter in the context of the deity power structure.

She may stand against Orcus, but that doesn't mean she can take him 1v1.

Even in 5e lore she is somewhere in the bottom of the deity power band, which still puts her above a demon prince like Orcus, who isn't a deity at all.

In 4e lore, she is a Greater God, and is The God Of Death. Full stop. Orcus doesn't remotely stand a chance. She annihilates him with a thought in a 1v1. Her exarchs are potentially a match for Orcus. Her most powerful exarch might be able to beat Orcus 1v1. He literally isn't even in the same league.

 

[dave2008]

In 4e lore, she is a Greater God, and is The God Of Death. Full stop. Orcus doesn't remotely stand a chance. She annihilates him with a thought in a 1v1. Her exarchs are potentially a match for Orcus. Her most powerful exarch might be able to beat Orcus 1v1. He literally isn't even in the same league.

Actually, that is not 4e canon. In the 4e adventure "Prince of Undeath" Orcus does indeed defeat her (apparently 1v1). She only survives if the PCs are able to defeat him. Also, the demon princes were indeed as powerful as some gods in 4e. In fact, Demogorgon even killed a god* (the one who split its head in two) in 4e. For reference here are the lvls for some demon lords and gods for which stats wrw provided by WotC:

Gods:
Bahamut - lvl 36
Lolth - lvl 35
Maglubiyet - lvl 32
Tiamat - lvl 35
Torog - lvl 34
Vecna - lvl 35

Demons Lords:
Baphomet - lvl 28
Dagon - lvl 32
Demogorgon - lvl 34
Orcus - lvl 33 (34 when empowered in "Prince of Undeath")
Pazuzu - lvl 33
Yeenoghu - lvl 28

*from the MM2:

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Actually, that is not 4e canon. In the 4e adventure "Prince of Undeath" Orcus does indeed defeat her (apparently 1v1). She only survives if the PCs are able to defeat him. Also, the demon princes were indeed as powerful as some gods in 4e. In fact, Demogorgon even killed a god* (the one who split its head in two) in 4e. For reference here are the lvls for some demon lords and gods for which stats wrw provided by WotC:

Gods:
Bahamut - lvl 36
Lolth - lvl 35
Maglubiyet - lvl 32
Tiamat - lvl 35
Torog - lvl 34
Vecna - lvl 35

Demons Lords:
Baphomet - lvl 28
Dagon - lvl 32
Demogorgon - lvl 34
Orcus - lvl 33 (34 when empowered in "Prince of Undeath")
Pazuzu - lvl 33
Yeenoghu - lvl 28

*from the MM2:
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IIRC it was an avatar of the RQ, but even if not, that's simply a case of an adventure contradicting the established lore. Or Orcus may have had some kind of boost, I don't recall.

Anyway, Raven Queen is a Greater God. IIRC, none of those you listed are, and only two of the gods you listed are as low CR as the highest of the Demon Princes.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

IIRC it was an avatar of the RQ, but even if not, that's simply a case of an adventure contradicting the established lore. Or Orcus may have had some kind of boost, I don't recall.

Anyway, Raven Queen is a Greater God. IIRC, none of those you listed are, and only two of the gods you listed are as low CR as the highest of the Demon Princes.

It's not an avatar.
Bahamut is a greater god in 4e (edit: if there's even such a distinction in 4e,ref Dave's post below). And you can say what you want reg. lore, the official stats are what they are.

 

[dave2008]

IIRC it was an avatar of the RQ, but even if not, that's simply a case of an adventure contradicting the established lore. Or Orcus may have had some kind of boost, I don't recall.

Anyway, Raven Queen is a Greater God. IIRC, none of those you listed are, and only two of the gods you listed are as low CR as the highest of the Demon Princes.

I do not believe RQ is a greater god any more or less than any of the gods in 4e. As far as I can tell (it has been a while since I was deep in 4e lore - which I love by the way), all of the gods given stats in 4e are just "gods" in such that they don't really ever provide a distinction. They definitely are not divided into such groups in the PHB or DMG, but I can't be sure it wasn't listed somewhere else, but I don't think so. I will say I did an extensive search on this subject (back when I played 4e) and determined there was not "official" evidence of lesser or greater gods. If you have evidence otherwise, please pass it on as I looked for it for a long time.

The only distinction I could find was between gods and exarchs. There are several gods in other editions that are listed as exarchs in 4e.

It is also worth noting that per the DMG, and mentioned elsewhere as well, primordials killed many gods in the Dawn War. And none of the primordials we have stats for get above lvl 35.

DMG pg162

Regarding the RQ and Orcus in Prince of Undeath. It is not an avatar, she is the real deal. From the adventure's conclusion:

It is important to note the for the final battle Orcus is "empowered," but this only takes him to lvl 34. Therefore, there is as much, if not more, proof to suggest that RQ is canonically among the weakest of the gods in 4e, around lvl 34 or maybe 35.

UPDATE: I knew I remembered reading something about demigods and lesser deities. I found it in the Manual of the Planes. In the section on Avandar it mentions "demigods and exarchs" as entities that attend the two "greater powers" (Corellon & Sehanine) and in the section on Celestia it mentions Moradin is the first among equals (between Moradin, Kord, & Bahamut) and that he governs over a court of "lesser deities and powerful exarchs." Then in the section on Hestavar it mentions: "Three greater deities (Pelor, Erathis, & Ioun) make their homes..."

So there is mild evidence of a distinction, but IMO in 4e the terms "greater powers" and "greater deities" are synonymous with the term "god" and the terms "lesser deities," "demigods," & "exarchs" are basically synonymous with each other. We are definitely not given a clear picture of their differences (between exarchs, demigods, and lesser deities) and they have a wide range of power levels. Also, it is worth noting that if Moradin is an "equal" and a "greater" god than by association you can pretty much put all of the gods with stats in 4e in the "greater" god category. Personally, I don't think that is a significant distinction in 4e.

PS In the official "Scales of War" AP for 4e, Tiamat killed Bahamut (but the PCs can bring him back). So being one level below your foe doesn't mean you can't defeat them, and gave us this pretty epic image:

 

[Hexmage-EN]

For those unaware, the Raven Queen largely regained her 4E lore in 5E with Explorer's Guide to Wildemount.

 

[dave2008]

For those unaware, the Raven Queen largely regained her 4E lore in 5E with Explorer's Guide to Wildemount.

That is because Exandria is based on the Dawn War pantheon from 4e. It doesn't really apply to the rest of 5e, but I don't use "official" lore anyway. I suggest we all just use what works for us, "official" lore has little to no impact on your game.