Order of events... Headman's chop!?

[Omertalvendetta]

So... another one for the masses... if my Barbarian character takes Headman's Chop as a feat, and I'm wielding a glaive, and I use Hammer Fall, for example, which is a power that knocks someone prone, does that attack get the additional 5 damage from the feat in that attack, or would it be subsequent attacks? What's the order of events here... is the enemy knocked prone first thereby allowing your extra damage, or do you deal damage, and then they're knocked prone.

We're mainly wondering this as we just recently also faced a Dire Wolf... which has...

Bite (standard; at-will)
+10 vs. AC; 1d8 + 4 damage, or 2d8 + 4 damage against a prone
target.

Combat Advantage
The dire wolf gains combat advantage against a target that has
one or more of the dire wolf’s allies adjacent to it. If the dire
wolf has combat advantage against the target, the target is also
knocked prone on a hit.

By what I mentioned above, the monster bites and if it has combat advantage, it would also knock the PC prone... would it the 2d8 + 4 damage because it knocked it prone when? during the attack, after the attack?

I hope my scenarios make sense. I'm merely curious as to if you have a power that knocks someone prone, and an ability that allows you to deal extra damage to prone targets, whether that extra damage is included in the attack that knocked them prone, or if it would be on the next attack... imho, if you have to wait till a subsequent attack to deal extra damage, that makes the dire wolf's ability (if it's not riding in packs with other dire wolves, that is) completely useless. If this is also the case, it would make it useless for my Barbarian to take Headman's Chop as I'd never deal the extra damage... I'd merely knock the target prone, and they'd get up, negating my "I'll deal extra damage next attack...". I realize it'd benefit the party, but it would certainly be useless to me...

so... help? What should be the order of events...?

 

[Aulirophile]

Unless the power you're using reads

Effect: Knock prone
Hit: Do damage.

In that order, it doesn't work that way. The enemies prone-ness is decided when you roll the attack. There are only a very few powers that specifically say do x, then do damage. It is always assumed you do damage and then do w/e other effects.

So it is "useless" to you. I would disagree about the wolf, proning at will with something as easy as CA is awesome. Prone, shift back one. He stands on his turn and... does absolutely nothing, unless he has reach. Can't charge, can't melee. Intelligently used prones are one of the best action deniers in existence, as any Polearm Fighter knows.

Which brings me to my second point: You should convince someone in your party to go with an auto-prone build, and you take headman's chop. Delay your turn to always be right after theirs and go to town. This feat is bad in a vacuum, in a party it can be very good. While that might not work for you, I know a lot of people who love party synergy.

 

[IanB]

In both cases you only get the higher damage if the target is already prone when you hit them. The extra damage on prone thing in the case of the wolves is why you should always use a couple of em.

 

[Nichwee]

I agree with the two replies here - but WotC CS do not.

I say this as our game has a Blightbeast in it and he checked up on his Lvl 16 granted ability to add Necrotic Vulnerability 5 to mobs if he hits them with Beast Form attacks until the end of his next turn.
His Lvl 11 ability adds Necrotic damage to his Beast Form attacks.

He was told that a Beast Form attack would therefore add Necrotic Vulnerability 5 to the target, then apply his extra Necrotic damage thus increasing said damage by 5 immediately, not on subsequent attacks.

 

[keterys]

That's actually a different example - that CS confusion is because the ability states that it adds vulnerability on hit, and you technically hit right before you apply damage. You'll see some table variation there, but I believe there was either a recent FAQ or errata that overturned that practice for at least some things - I believe a player I know who was applying radiant and frost vulnerability was griping about it.

In the Hammer Fall example, you apply damage before you prone.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

I agree that having a party member help knock prone is the best way, but also add that you can do it yourself with an action point.

 

[Aulirophile]

I agree with the two replies here - but WotC CS do not.

I say this as our game has a Blightbeast in it and he checked up on his Lvl 16 granted ability to add Necrotic Vulnerability 5 to mobs if he hits them with Beast Form attacks until the end of his next turn.
His Lvl 11 ability adds Necrotic damage to his Beast Form attacks.

He was told that a Beast Form attack would therefore add Necrotic Vulnerability 5 to the target, then apply his extra Necrotic damage thus increasing said damage by 5 immediately, not on subsequent attacks.

Different issue entirely. "On hit" hit comes first, sure, apply vuln, then you roll damage. Damage roll+5 vuln. Here the issue is that for 99% of powers, you do damage and then the status effect "Hit: Do x damage, then knock prone" The prone is a result of the damage roll, not the hit roll, technically.