Orville: New Horizons (Spoilers)
A very interesting episode.
The John/Talla relationship was interesting to see, most Sci Fi relationships focus on the emotional/cultural problems, but in reality, there would likely be strong biological hurdles to overcome with any "alien" species, and it was neat to see that in this case (hehe also a good reason why Superman and Lois Lane WOULD NEVER EVER WORK!). One thing I am still waiting on in Sci Fi, is to see a gender dismorphic race. Humans are used to the idea that men and women are roughly equal in size, intelligence, and ability... but there are many species where this is not the case, where male and female members have radically different body sizes and capacities (think bees or ants as one example). It would be interesting to see the cultural dynamics of such a society.
The diplomacy aspect was....well pretty dumb to be honest. I don't know how they ever thought it would be a good idea to lie to the other contingent and then just go "well now that you know us a little better, we have totally been lying to you this whole time, sorry!" I mean....did they really think that would work? I get the idea of having the ladies show the contingent around and handling the negotiations, but to actively say "oh yeah our ladies are in charge, just like you".... I mean damn that's a whopper of a lie.
The Isaac aspect was pretty cool, and it was neat to see a little bit of the Kaylon origin. The whole emotion thing was a very interesting dilemma. On the one hand, the notion of "love the person as they are" vs "making them into the person you want them to be" is a common relationship issue we struggle with.... and its a bit of a thin ice discussion (some people might have felt just as Claire did, and other people might have been disgusted with her decision to "change" Isaac). They tried to ground it with Kelly's relationship to Ed, but honestly its a pretty different scenario. Kelly wanted Ed to work less, to make some changes in his actions. But in this case, Claire is literally trying to change who Isaac is at a fundamental level.... that's a big deal. But on the other hand, how can Isaac, who has absolutely no experience with emotion, ever truly make an informed choice? Is denying him the chance to experience it because of his own ignorance also cruel? Again a wonderfully interesting dilemma.
The John/Talla relationship was interesting to see, most Sci Fi relationships focus on the emotional/cultural problems, but in reality, there would likely be strong biological hurdles to overcome with any "alien" species, and it was neat to see that in this case (hehe also a good reason why Superman and Lois Lane WOULD NEVER EVER WORK!). One thing I am still waiting on in Sci Fi, is to see a gender dismorphic race. Humans are used to the idea that men and women are roughly equal in size, intelligence, and ability... but there are many species where this is not the case, where male and female members have radically different body sizes and capacities (think bees or ants as one example). It would be interesting to see the cultural dynamics of such a society.
The diplomacy aspect was....well pretty dumb to be honest. I don't know how they ever thought it would be a good idea to lie to the other contingent and then just go "well now that you know us a little better, we have totally been lying to you this whole time, sorry!" I mean....did they really think that would work? I get the idea of having the ladies show the contingent around and handling the negotiations, but to actively say "oh yeah our ladies are in charge, just like you".... I mean damn that's a whopper of a lie.
The Isaac aspect was pretty cool, and it was neat to see a little bit of the Kaylon origin. The whole emotion thing was a very interesting dilemma. On the one hand, the notion of "love the person as they are" vs "making them into the person you want them to be" is a common relationship issue we struggle with.... and its a bit of a thin ice discussion (some people might have felt just as Claire did, and other people might have been disgusted with her decision to "change" Isaac). They tried to ground it with Kelly's relationship to Ed, but honestly its a pretty different scenario. Kelly wanted Ed to work less, to make some changes in his actions. But in this case, Claire is literally trying to change who Isaac is at a fundamental level.... that's a big deal. But on the other hand, how can Isaac, who has absolutely no experience with emotion, ever truly make an informed choice? Is denying him the chance to experience it because of his own ignorance also cruel? Again a wonderfully interesting dilemma.
Parts of "From Unknown Graves" were great. Other bits... not so much.
We are directly told that this alien culture is roughly on part with the Union technologically. The Union has a whole dossier on the culture, up to and including their constitutional laws. But they know... nothing about Union culture?
But, even accepting that, "We are on a diplomatic mission! Let us start with a huge lie we know will cheese them off," is just a poorly conceived premise for a plot.
And, I am not sure that the explicit balance of a misandrist culture was really needed.
Also, while I can thoroughly understand that there's a message to be had about how sometimes you can do big things to make a relationship work (Doc Finn and Isaac), and sometimes you just can't (Talia and John), the scene of two people lying in bed after sex, with one of them bruised and bloodied... did not play well with a couple people I know who were survivors of domestic abuse. Especially after John had been taking great pain to hide from doctors and friends the fact that his injuries came from his relationship. The parallels maybe didn't say exactly what they wanted to say there.
We are directly told that this alien culture is roughly on part with the Union technologically. The Union has a whole dossier on the culture, up to and including their constitutional laws. But they know... nothing about Union culture?
But, even accepting that, "We are on a diplomatic mission! Let us start with a huge lie we know will cheese them off," is just a poorly conceived premise for a plot.
And, I am not sure that the explicit balance of a misandrist culture was really needed.
Also, while I can thoroughly understand that there's a message to be had about how sometimes you can do big things to make a relationship work (Doc Finn and Isaac), and sometimes you just can't (Talia and John), the scene of two people lying in bed after sex, with one of them bruised and bloodied... did not play well with a couple people I know who were survivors of domestic abuse. Especially after John had been taking great pain to hide from doctors and friends the fact that his injuries came from his relationship. The parallels maybe didn't say exactly what they wanted to say there.
Argyle King
Legend
As others have said, I have mixed feelings about the episode.
The diplomacy mission was a low-point for the writing. The only thing which came out of it was a joke about women taking too many bags on vacation, and Mercer turning down the Kirk method of solving problems.
"Solving" the cultural issue by having Kelly turn her cheating into a positive seemed weird to me. "Finding common ground" by way of being an unfaithful and manipulative romantic partner was weird. I'm not exactly sure what message the show was trying to get across but I don't think it worked.
The stuff with Talla and John was interesting. As was said by someone else above, it's an aspect of interspecies relationships which is never mentioned in other shows.
I understand why effort was made to fill in the Kaylon backstory. For one episode, it was nice to see more. But I think something was lost concerning the series as a whole by removing some of the mystery. I feel that something like the weight of the Kaylon backstory should have been used for something more meaningful to the in-show plot than providing social commentary on corporate greed.
I'm not disputing whether corporate greed exists. Narratively, I question whether or not that's a big enough reason to humanize the murder-bot hivemind antagonist around which much of the show is written. The reveal that newer Kaylon (like Issac) are incapable of sustained emotions was an attempt to walk that back, but I still think it removes some amount of menace from the Kaylon.
The episode feels out of sync with the rest of the show. Having it come right after so many good episodes in a row makes it more noticeable.
The diplomacy mission was a low-point for the writing. The only thing which came out of it was a joke about women taking too many bags on vacation, and Mercer turning down the Kirk method of solving problems.
"Solving" the cultural issue by having Kelly turn her cheating into a positive seemed weird to me. "Finding common ground" by way of being an unfaithful and manipulative romantic partner was weird. I'm not exactly sure what message the show was trying to get across but I don't think it worked.
The stuff with Talla and John was interesting. As was said by someone else above, it's an aspect of interspecies relationships which is never mentioned in other shows.
I understand why effort was made to fill in the Kaylon backstory. For one episode, it was nice to see more. But I think something was lost concerning the series as a whole by removing some of the mystery. I feel that something like the weight of the Kaylon backstory should have been used for something more meaningful to the in-show plot than providing social commentary on corporate greed.
I'm not disputing whether corporate greed exists. Narratively, I question whether or not that's a big enough reason to humanize the murder-bot hivemind antagonist around which much of the show is written. The reveal that newer Kaylon (like Issac) are incapable of sustained emotions was an attempt to walk that back, but I still think it removes some amount of menace from the Kaylon.
The episode feels out of sync with the rest of the show. Having it come right after so many good episodes in a row makes it more noticeable.
Horwath
Legend
Bit of a mixed bag here of an episode.
The Isaac emotions and Kaylon origins was great and only good part of the episode.
The "diplomacy" one was a complete blunder and I don't know how they think that will work if both parties are on somewhat equal technological level. Sure if you want "diplomacy" and you can say we will be allies or eat 1 million quantum torpedoes, sure the presented model can work.
John and Talla seemed completely stupid to me.
The whole Xelayan high-gravity world super strength is paper thin plot device.
If you ask any biologist, they would say that any life on high G world would look completely different from ours, most would be very short and very wide, something like starfishes, as body fluids will mostly run laterally and very short upwards pumping distance.
Most humans without training get G-locked at 3 or 4g, and the taller you are, the less G's you can take as your heart must pump longer distance to your brain.
maybe dwarves are from 1.2 or 1.3g world as they are short, wide and strong and elves could be from 0.9g world?
But anyway, do Xelayan do not have any self control? No finesse?
How do they operate all the fine equipment on Orville? Or Tallas station is made of pure "duranium"?
Would uncontrolable strength not be a problem for security officer? How do they handle minor offense or drunk people? Ripping their arms out?
Or do they get some kind of epileptic attack only during sex?
Do they don't have some pills for that in 25th century, to reduce the chance of manslaughter during inter species relationships?
The Isaac emotions and Kaylon origins was great and only good part of the episode.
The "diplomacy" one was a complete blunder and I don't know how they think that will work if both parties are on somewhat equal technological level. Sure if you want "diplomacy" and you can say we will be allies or eat 1 million quantum torpedoes, sure the presented model can work.
John and Talla seemed completely stupid to me.
The whole Xelayan high-gravity world super strength is paper thin plot device.
If you ask any biologist, they would say that any life on high G world would look completely different from ours, most would be very short and very wide, something like starfishes, as body fluids will mostly run laterally and very short upwards pumping distance.
Most humans without training get G-locked at 3 or 4g, and the taller you are, the less G's you can take as your heart must pump longer distance to your brain.
maybe dwarves are from 1.2 or 1.3g world as they are short, wide and strong and elves could be from 0.9g world?
But anyway, do Xelayan do not have any self control? No finesse?
How do they operate all the fine equipment on Orville? Or Tallas station is made of pure "duranium"?
Would uncontrolable strength not be a problem for security officer? How do they handle minor offense or drunk people? Ripping their arms out?
Or do they get some kind of epileptic attack only during sex?
Do they don't have some pills for that in 25th century, to reduce the chance of manslaughter during inter species relationships?
Ryujin
Legend
Corporate greed? I was getting straight-up slavery.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
It's both.
We have known that Isaac cannot feel emotions from, I think, Season 1 Episode 1. No reveal there.
The "reveal", if there was one, was that the Kaylon were not just in servitude, but tortured.
Interesting side note: K-1, the Kaylon we see in servitude in backstory, is played by the same person who played Kaylon Primary in Season 2, Episodes 8 and 9 ("Identity," Parts 1 & 2).
Flip side - we can't expect them all to be gems.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I find that charming. That being said, I also love SNW! Both are what I want out of Trek.
Argyle King
Legend
True. Most shows I watch do have weak episodes.
Still, I think this episode's faults were highlight by being in close proximity to a string of mostly strong episodes.
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