Orville: New Horizons (Spoilers)

[Stalker0]

I'm with @Umbran about what Gordon did. Diplomatic rug-sweeping tends to gloss over the truth of an issue and Gordon is calling that out. You can't deal with and move past an issue, if you never explicitly deal with it.

I guess the reason it didn't resonate with me is that we have already very clearly defined this dynamic in previous episodes.

• The Union is under threat of total annihilation by the Kaylon, the greatest military threat they have ever seen.
• The Moclans provide a major portion of their weapons manufacturing, such that a loss would be considered "devastating" to their military efforts.
• The Moclans have a brutal history of mistreating women, and have been shown in previous episodes to use their current diplomatic position to "get away" with acts the general Union considers abhorrent.

The problem isn't that the Union didn't want to deal with the problem, the problem is it is the absolute WORST possible time to try and deal with it. Its easy to go, "if you don't do this some kids are going to die you monster, speak up!" But then if your decision means the Kaylon start winning, start destroying entire worlds (which is a very real possibility), and then your people look at you in shock and horror, screaming at you going "how could you let this happen?"..... in the end did you really do the right thing?

That to me is the heart of this morale issue, its not that the Moclans acts are inconvenient and the Union just "doesn't want to see it". They are balancing a small horror against the weight of a very possible (but not guaranteed) apocalypse. So at what point does the small horror grow large enough that you have to act....that's the meaty and interesting debate.


When we also think about timing... strategically the most sensible action for the Union to take was:

• Focus on weapons manufacturing outside of Moclus
• Once that manufacturing is expanded enough, then you can now diplomatically push back on Moclus, as the Moclans no longer have leverage. Or in the worst scenario of a separation, you are not caught with your pants down.

This solves both your problems. You need more weapons for the war anyway, and this will solve your longer term diplomatic problem (or at least give you increased leverage). The Topa situation may have forced their hand before they were ready (we just don't know).

Ultimately this is one of the reasons that Game of Thrones was such an interesting story (ehem pre-season 8 of course). In GOT, when people did the "right thing" that was strategically unwise....they usually got killed (or got people killed) for it. That's the real morale calculus in action, its easy to be morale until people start dying.

 

[Ryujin]

I guess the reason it didn't resonate with me is that we have already very clearly defined this dynamic in previous episodes.

• The Union is under threat of total annihilation by the Kaylon, the greatest military threat they have ever seen.
• The Moclans provide a major portion of their weapons manufacturing, such that a loss would be considered "devastating" to their military efforts.
• The Moclans have a brutal history of mistreating women, and have been shown in previous episodes to use their current diplomatic position to "get away" with acts the general Union considers abhorrent.

The problem isn't that the Union didn't want to deal with the problem, the problem is it is the absolute WORST possible time to try and deal with it. Its easy to go, "if you don't do this some kids are going to die you monster, speak up!" But then if your decision means the Kaylon start winning, start destroying entire worlds (which is a very real possibility), and then your people look at you in shock and horror, screaming at you going "how could you let this happen?"..... in the end did you really do the right thing?

That to me is the heart of this morale issue, its not that the Moclans acts are inconvenient and the Union just "doesn't want to see it". They are balancing a small horror against the weight of a very possible (but not guaranteed) apocalypse. So at what point does the small horror grow large enough that you have to act....that's the meaty and interesting debate.


When we also think about timing... strategically the most sensible action for the Union to take was:

• Focus on weapons manufacturing outside of Moclus
• Once that manufacturing is expanded enough, then you can now diplomatically push back on Moclus, as the Moclans no longer have leverage. Or in the worst scenario of a separation, you are not caught with your pants down.

This solves both your problems. You need more weapons for the war anyway, and this will solve your longer term diplomatic problem (or at least give you increased leverage). The Topa situation may have forced their hand before they were ready (we just don't know).

Ultimately this is one of the reasons that Game of Thrones was such an interesting story (ehem pre-season 8 of course). In GOT, when people did the "right thing" that was strategically unwise....they usually got killed (or got people killed) for it. That's the real morale calculus in action, its easy to be morale until people start dying.

I'd say that it comes down more on the side of, "Who needs the other more, The Union, or Moclus?" Let's see how it plays out.

EDIT - As long as Moclus is providing weapons, there's no pressure to do what you suggest. If there's no pressure to do what you suggest, then the politically expedient of ignoring Moclan actions remains in place. Remove the supply and the rest has to naturally follow.

 

[Stalker0]

I'd say that it comes down more on the side of, "Who needs the other more, The Union, or Moclus?" Let's see how it plays out.

hehe pretty sure we are going to end up with our heroes triumphing over the Kaylon regardless of whether their choices were strategically wise. The Orville is not GOT after all

 

[billd91]

That to me is the heart of this morale issue, its not that the Moclans acts are inconvenient and the Union just "doesn't want to see it". They are balancing a small horror against the weight of a very possible (but not guaranteed) apocalypse. So at what point does the small horror grow large enough that you have to act....that's the meaty and interesting debate.

That may be one good reason to bring this up now. Political convenience vs moral rectitude. It's easy to keep pushing the moral issue (and I'm not entirely sure it's that "small" a horror) aside because it's politically dangerous. But it's pretty easy to see the fallout from that in our normal lives these days, even if the stakes aren't as high as being annihilated by the Kaylon.
Maybe we should stand up to the extremists and risk things like higher taxes, lower corporate profits, in favor of stopping them from targeting people with violence and loss of fundamental rights.

 

[Stalker0]

But it's pretty easy to see the fallout from that in our normal lives these days, even if the stakes aren't as high as being annihilated by the Kaylon.

Yeah but that's the problem....its really hard to debate morality and compare it to this situation when the stakes we have dealt with as a species are pretty low in comparison to "our entire planet gets wiped out".

It always urkes me in those movies where the protagonists are like, "this might save humanity, but if we lose our humanity, is it really worth it?" And I always want to scream at the tv, "um yes you idiot it absolutely is!".

I think most people if faced with the idea that their children and their children's children, and all the child to come were wiped from the earth, would accept turning into horrific inhuman monsters. Because the next generation can wipe that sin clean, or the next one, for the next ten generations if the stain is that large....but you can get there. You can't get there if your gone.


Now I will also note that the Moclans are politically being absolute idiots in this situation. They played their hand, and they lost, it sucks, but you suck it up and you move on. You make restorations, you find some fall guys in your government and they get fired, you accept that the female colony is a lost cause....and you move on. I can understand their stubbornness all the way up to the moment the Union got serious about "Brexiting" them, and then suddenly you have to course correct, because the Moclans aren't stupid (sometimes they are portrayed that way, but they are reasonably technologically sophisticated). They know what standing on their own could mean...their own annihilation. And again in the face of that, there's a lot of wiggle room on what you are willing to accept.

 

[billd91]

Yeah but that's the problem....its really hard to debate morality and compare it to this situation when the stakes we have dealt with as a species are pretty low in comparison to "our entire planet gets wiped out".

It always urkes me in those movies where the protagonists are like, "this might save humanity, but if we lose our humanity, is it really worth it?" And I always want to scream at the tv, "um yes you idiot it absolutely is!".

I think most people if faced with the idea that their children and their children's children, and all the child to come were wiped from the earth, would accept turning into horrific inhuman monsters. Because the next generation can wipe that sin clean, or the next one, for the next ten generations if the stain is that large....but you can get there. You can't get there if your gone.

I would assert that may not be the problem. It's a lot easier to stand up and assert your morality and humanity when you have aspirational entertainment doing so when it's obvious your own problems are less personally apocalyptic (though for my daughters, one of whom is trans and the other who just lost her right to body autonomy, maybe the problems are apocalyptic enough).

 

[Stalker0]

Orville is coming to Disney+ in September. Here’s holding for #fourville !

 

[Umbran]

But then if your decision means the Kaylon start winning, start destroying entire worlds (which is a very real possibility), and then your people look at you in shock and horror, screaming at you going "how could you let this happen?"..... in the end did you really do the right thing?

If you allow the kids to keep being abused to ensure your safety, aren't the Kaylon right about you in the first place?

 

[Stalker0]

If you allow the kids to keep being abused to ensure your safety, aren't the Kaylon right about you in the first place?

Does it matter what the Kaylons think....or anyone thinks....if your all dead?

And there's a big difference between "all the kids" and "a small group of kids vs the billions of people on a world"

 

[Horwath]

Another great episode, no matter how much I disagree with actions of certain individuals.

I agree that Union should have not kick out Moclus.
Not only that they lost in strategic side, but how will they now have any chance to influence their internal politics?
They could have slowly chipped away at their ignorance and maybe teach them something.
Now Moclans will just double down on their own philosophy.

And Heveena turn out to be a small villain in this episode not matter how noble her goals were.
...the thing with road paved with noble intentions and all that...

She's lucky that Union has good laws of Mercer might just toss her out of airlock, as her actions with Topa, a child still, is one step from shanghaiing.

And no matter the situation of Moclus leaving Union, they will still fight together vs Kaylon, maybe just not that effectively.
The enemy of my enemy...might not be a friend, but can be a useful tool in the fight.