[OT] Ben Stein and Evercrack

[Spatula]

Facist is not a word.

The term psuedo-intellectual also demonstrates either simple slander or ingnorance.

Ingnorance is not a word, either. Beware the trap of condescendingly correcting other people's typos...

As to the topic, I don't much care for Ben Stein, but it sounds like he's done his kid some good (of course, we don't get to hear his son's side of things). Addiction is really awful and a lot of times the addicted person can't pull themselves out of it alone.

 

[Fast Learner]

Personally, I side with the kid. If he wants to play Everquest, then he should play Everquest. There's an obvious culture war going on between the kid and his father.

While there may be a culture clash between the two of them, that doesn't make addictive behavior ok. If a kid is neglecting homework and real-world interpersonal relationships, and if the kid can't function in any kind of remotely normal manner then there's a real problem; it's not just a matter of a culture clash.

For example, my daughter uses IM to talk with friends, some of whom she's never met. She posts on boards a lot. She can absorb information in a way that most of today's adults can't and so multi-tasks like crazy. All of these are things that are culturally quite different from how I grew up, and a lot of adults are uncomfortable with them. None of those things, though, are particularly harmful to my daughter's life and growth.

Culture clash doesn't excuse soemthing that's truly harmful. IMO.

 

[Apok]

In regards to Ben Stein's decisions in this matter...

None of us know (unless some of you guys are omnipotent and never told me) exactly what Mr. Stein went through with his kid prior to him shipping him off to boarding school. He very well may have taken time off from his job (whatever it is that he does) and other things to be with his son and try & correct the problem. Just because he doesn't mention it specifically in the interview doesn't mean he didn't do it, so don't try to cut'n'paste snippets.

So, with this in mind, I side with jaerdaph only in the sense that I feel that many parents don't feel a terrible ammount of responsibility for raising their children. We have alot of working parents in this country who are trying to balance a career, a mortgage (sp?), car payments, food, clothing, and raising 2.5 children to be productive members of society. I feel that many of them tend to "pass the buck" off to others to take care of/watch their children for them so they can do other things that are important to them. This kinda goes along with jaerdaph's mention of the 70's "Me" mentality. Because of this, I feel that some parents have grown lazy and complacant and want to nerf the rest of the world so they can leave their child by himself and not worry about his personal, physical, and mental saftey. These are unrealistic expectations.

HOWEVER,

I also think that, while it is good for a parent to put his own personal wants and needs aside for his child, especially if it's to help him out of some kind of crisis (much like Ben's own son was suffering), I think it takes even more courage for such a parent to admit that he can't do it on his own, that he needs help.

Ben Stein admitted that he couldn't help his child himself and he needed help. Go Ben.

So, as ByronD was (I think) trying to imply, there are some things that a parent just can't handle and they need to realize this and know when to ask for the help of others.

Now, did Ben make the right decision in keeping his son in this school for a period of several years? I don't know. I don't know just how bad his condition was and I doubt anyone here does either because we don't know Ben's son. Maybe Ben was just overreacting or maybe he wasn't. I think the point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't jump to conclusions or point fingers at anyone without knowing more about the situation. Lets face it, people, all we know is what was posted in that interview/news blurb, and I'd hardly call that a triple-cited scientific resarch document, so don't read so much into it.

By the way, I also think that Mr. Stein's comment about the "demon in everquest" was uncalled for. There's nothing wrong with the game, Ben, the problem is with the kids who play it.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Currently, my brother-in-law is an EQ addict. He is 21, lives at home, doesn't attend school, have a job or any real-life friends besides his girlfriend of 5 years. He plays EQ for at least 10 hours a day, 7 days a week. (Which he has done for the past year.)

I understand that he has connections on EQ. I understand that EQ is where he is getting his self-esteem. When he's in the world of EQ, he is important, is respected, and has an enormous amount of time and effort already devoted to the game. He is L65, and people online respect that.


The father and mother are going nuts. The problem is that they are incompetent with anything that requires real-world discipline (such as pulling the plug and/or medical treatment). This situation is really hurting my wife, but she does not have the authority to get them to go see a counselor/psychiatrist.

They are a dysfunctional family, but I cannot force them to change. They disregard and ignore problems until the problems blow up in their faces. This procrastination is indictative of the family, and I fear that in this case, it will end badly unless someone steps in to fix the problem.
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All of the above is to say that I can understand Ben Stein's predicament. I do not fault the game. However, addiction can manifest itself in multitudes of ways. I definitely think that my brother-in-law is addicted. He has all of the classic symptoms of an addiction, including withdrawal, isolation, and inability to function in the real-world to such an extent that he never leaves the house.

 

[Fast Learner]

All of the above is to say that I can understand Ben Stein's predicament. I do not fault the game. However, addiction can manifest itself in multitudes of ways. I definitely think that my brother-in-law is addicted. He has all of the classic symptoms of an addiction, including withdrawal, isolation, and inability to function in the real-world to such an extent that he never leaves the house.

I completely agree.

In fact, something I didn't mention above is that I, too, was addicted. For about 6 months almost all I did was play EQ (this was during a short period where my daughter was living with her mother, longstorynopoint).

Something that was a bit surprising for me is that the addiction was seriously supported by clinical depression, something I didn't know I was suffering from. When I began to address the depression I began to break the addiction. The final near-release* from the addiction came as I finally brought the depression under control.

That made me wonder if, at least for some, those two might be working hand in hand. (Part of the counseling with my daughter and EQ involved examining her for potential depression.)

(*I still want to play EQ sometimes, not so much for the game but as a highly ineffective but pleasant-feeling way to deal with the onset of mild depression.)

 

[WizarDru]

I approached it the way I believe a responsible parent should (at least as a first resort). I (further) taught her about priorities, about adventure in real life, about time management, and about addiction. We hashed it out a lot, including quite a few unpleasant arguments. We got some counseling. I put up with her not liking me, her being sullen, and her thinking I was dead wrong.

[snip]

What would my daughter have learned about addiction if I had simply sent her away to a place where she couldn't play EQ? Heck, what would she have learned about it if I simply took away her computer?

All true. However, I really don't think we know enough to fairly critique Stein's parenting based on a report on 48 hours (or whichever inflammatory "news" magazine this was), let alone from an excerpt on ET about it. I noticed that the interviewer kept trying to lead Stein down a path, and he kept correcting her, even from the brief excerpt I read. As Apok points out, we just don't know. Stein may have realized he was out of his depth. We certainly don't know much about his son or Stein's family life. Every family is different. Boys are very much different from girls, and handle situations very differently. Where my daughter may scowl, my son starts by swinging fists. Not to mention that the teen years are not exactly easy, regardless.

As for the Cardigan Mountain School...it's hardly some sort of prison. A year there almost equalled three years of college, for me. They certainly look like a fairly nice place, judging from their website. I don't think they selected the school because of distance, but instead because of the reputation and quality of the school. Nowhere on the website does it emphasize a video-game free policy, although it's clear they emphasize sports and physical activities.

While I don't hold Everquest responsible, I do get stunned at the lengths some will go to when playing it. Getting 'baby beepers' so you can track when a particular ultra-rare spawn is open, for example. Some folks are just swept into it, and can't get out.

I suppose I just don't like seeing a mob form and start to throw rocks with limited information. I am glad to see so many parents here who are concerned and involved with their own children's lives. That is what makes the difference.

 

[herald]

Point in fact, you can't trust a speach writer for President Nixon.

That's all I have to say.

 

[Aaron L]

I have observed that everyone who has become addicted to EverQuest is using it as a shield from some other unpleasant event in their life. I know at least 2 people who played like that, and all the cases I have read about are like that. I have been playing for 3 years, never excessively, sometimes without getting on for a month. I like the game, but it's not the greatest. I wouldn't play it instead of D&D, certainly

Was Ben Stein dealing with the issues that made his son play EQ all the time? Or was he just removing the symptom, allowing the problem to get worse? I don't know.

[edit: Oh, now he's all healthy and playing football and wrestling, not that wierd video game. Yeah, right.]

 

[ColonelHardisson]

By the way, I also think that Mr. Stein's comment about the "demon in everquest" was uncalled for. There's nothing wrong with the game, Ben, the problem is with the kids who play it.

Ever hear the term "demon rum" or "demon drink" or even "weed with roots in hell"? They were metaphorical terms, outmoded now by many decades. Still, you hear them occasionally. Those who used, and still use, such terms are asserting that such things have some quality that encourages addiction in some. I think that Everquest, just like a number of things in the world, has something about it that attracts addictive personalities. That's what he was referring to, and it should be noted that he made this reference after the interviewer made a ham-handed effort to ascribe actual demonic qualities to the game, or seemed to be trying to get Stein to do so. I think that he cleverly defused that line of questioning by simply taking the words of the interviewer and making them less sensationalistic.

My own opinion is that there is, indeed, something about Everquest that attracts certain addictive personalities. That doesn't mean that there is anything inherently wrong with the game; there are many things in the world that attract such personalities. Many, many more people play the game with no problem. I don't blame alcohol for the alcoholics in my family, but I recognize that the potential for a problem is there for some who drink it. You don't hear it so much now, but back during the height of the D&D craze of the 80s, there was a lot of discussion about how D&D also attracts addictive personalities. I saw a few guys I know who probably were pretty close to addicted. But, they moved on to other addictions after a while. So, it'd probably be worthwhile to recognize what indicators point to addictive personalities, and to what addictive personalities are attracted to, in a general sense. I'm sure studies have been done; does anyone have any references to such material?

 

[FDP Mike]

Cultural values?

[. . .] At one point in the interview, the father says something about how wonderful a house he has, and what a good neighborhood he's in, and the kid should be out playing in the fresh air, etc. To me that's nothing more than a certain value system that he's trying to impose on his son. My parents had cultural values that they tried to impose on me in the late 60s and I rejected them. This just seems to be a variation on a theme [. . .].

Sorry, but I don't see this at all.

Encouraging a kid to go and play outside is an imposition of some kind of cultural value? Which one, and what are its politics? I mean, getting the kid out in the fresh (?) air and into a swimming pool or onto a soccer pitch with other (physical) people is a good, natural, healthy thing to expect -- not some form of attempted ideological dominance.

Certainly, "good neighbourhood" could be construed in various ways (i.e., a comfortable upper-middle class suburban neighbourhood or inner city slums?), if you want to engage in an overdetermined parsing of Stein's answers to the interviewer.

I agree with Stein about getting out of the house. When I was a kid, my parents never imposed some cultural value of "go outside" -- I just did it, and for hours at a time. Now, if I spend too much time indoors, I feel it (even if that means spending too much time at a computer game that I really enjoy ). A major element of the obesity problem in (North) American children is a distinct lack of physical activity. Why? Because they're spending the greater part of their time in front of televisions and computers. If you want to label healthy physical and social interaction an imposed cultural value (i.e., a constricting ideology), then I'm really not sure what would be considered a good bit of parenting in this case.

EverQuest on-line is not real social interaction; it's a pale substitute. Heaven forgive Stein the attempt to get his son out into the actual world with actual people and actual air to breathe.

Now, the EverQuest RPG is a completely different matter . . . .