[OT, don't move] Go see Signs.
- Thread starter RangerWickett
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ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Re: What I mean....
First, just because Fermi has a hypothesis doesn't mean he's conclusively figured out there is no intelligent life. The Drake equation, for example, can be used to show the inevitability of either the existence or non-existence of extrasolar life - that's the nature of mathematics. It all depends on the numbers that are plugged into the equation. Plenty of scientists have come to far less conclusive answers, or to answers that favor intelligent life elsewhere.
Second, there have been plenty of scientists throughout the ages who have conclusively proven various things don't exist or can't happen, based on "evidence." Things like heavier-than-air flight, radio waves, nuclear fission, and extrasolar planets. All had detractors who came up with mathematical proof that these things were not possible. Heck, there were theories going around during the time of the early railroads that the human body couldn't withstand more than 35 miles per hour of speed without irreparable harm - I'm sure they thought their science was sound on that one. Theories based on mathematics are fine tools for scientific research, but should never be taken as irrefutable proof of anything, and especially the absence of anything. This would lead to simply giving up on various avenues of research. It was, I believe, the Postmaster General of the US (his name escapes me) who advocated closing down the patent office in 1899 or thereabouts - "Everything that can be invented has been invented" was his reasoning. I'm sure he felt he had good reason to think so, but it was rather myopic thinking.
I still don't think intelligent life has visited the Earth. I don't think it's inevitable for it to happen if such life did exist. I also don't know whether intelligent life exists in this galaxy or not, but I won't preclude the possibility, simply because all the reasonings and proofs that can be given can be completely obviated by discoveries in the future. History has proven that time and again.
Mark Chance said:
First, just because Fermi has a hypothesis doesn't mean he's conclusively figured out there is no intelligent life. The Drake equation, for example, can be used to show the inevitability of either the existence or non-existence of extrasolar life - that's the nature of mathematics. It all depends on the numbers that are plugged into the equation. Plenty of scientists have come to far less conclusive answers, or to answers that favor intelligent life elsewhere.
Second, there have been plenty of scientists throughout the ages who have conclusively proven various things don't exist or can't happen, based on "evidence." Things like heavier-than-air flight, radio waves, nuclear fission, and extrasolar planets. All had detractors who came up with mathematical proof that these things were not possible. Heck, there were theories going around during the time of the early railroads that the human body couldn't withstand more than 35 miles per hour of speed without irreparable harm - I'm sure they thought their science was sound on that one. Theories based on mathematics are fine tools for scientific research, but should never be taken as irrefutable proof of anything, and especially the absence of anything. This would lead to simply giving up on various avenues of research. It was, I believe, the Postmaster General of the US (his name escapes me) who advocated closing down the patent office in 1899 or thereabouts - "Everything that can be invented has been invented" was his reasoning. I'm sure he felt he had good reason to think so, but it was rather myopic thinking.
I still don't think intelligent life has visited the Earth. I don't think it's inevitable for it to happen if such life did exist. I also don't know whether intelligent life exists in this galaxy or not, but I won't preclude the possibility, simply because all the reasonings and proofs that can be given can be completely obviated by discoveries in the future. History has proven that time and again.
Mark Chance
Boingy! Boingy!
Ah, yes....
But only after the fact, obviously. Your observation is noteworthy as a caution and makes for interesting history, but it has no bearing on the status of ETI research itself.
Such is the nature of science. ETI research is a valid field, even though it is one that has yielded no fruit to date. That is to say, ETI research is valid as long as it remains scientific rather than devolving into the scientism that marks, for example, most evolutionary biology.
On many levels, I'll admit that intelligent alien life is possible. There is nothing inherently contradictory about the possibility scientifically, philosophically, and even theologically. Of course, admitting the possibility of a thing has no bearing on that things actuality. The most basic example: It was possible I could have been born with blond hair. The fact of the matter is, however, I do not.
But only after the fact, obviously. Your observation is noteworthy as a caution and makes for interesting history, but it has no bearing on the status of ETI research itself.
Such is the nature of science. ETI research is a valid field, even though it is one that has yielded no fruit to date. That is to say, ETI research is valid as long as it remains scientific rather than devolving into the scientism that marks, for example, most evolutionary biology.
On many levels, I'll admit that intelligent alien life is possible. There is nothing inherently contradictory about the possibility scientifically, philosophically, and even theologically. Of course, admitting the possibility of a thing has no bearing on that things actuality. The most basic example: It was possible I could have been born with blond hair. The fact of the matter is, however, I do not.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Re: Ah, yes....
Yeah, bu this observation also has no bearing at all on the SETI project. We can empirically find out what hair color you have, and we can check your genetic background to determine whther you could have had a certain hair color. We cannot empirically know whether there isn't alien intelligence.
And what's wrong with pointing out what has gone before us historically? It most definitely bears upon this discussion. Does humanity have to keep making the mistake of being closed-minded and myopic simply because each situation is different? If we have learned anything from history, it's that too often scientific discovery is hindered by nay-sayers who rule out possibilities based on theoretical/mathematical evidence. Saying "there is no alien life, because Fermi's theory proves it, and because SETI hasn't found anything" is very much akin to the thinking of the Postmaster General I cited above, or any of the other disproven theories I mentioned.
Mark Chance said:
The most basic example: It was possible I could have been born with blond hair. The fact of the matter is, however, I do not.
Yeah, bu this observation also has no bearing at all on the SETI project. We can empirically find out what hair color you have, and we can check your genetic background to determine whther you could have had a certain hair color. We cannot empirically know whether there isn't alien intelligence.
And what's wrong with pointing out what has gone before us historically? It most definitely bears upon this discussion. Does humanity have to keep making the mistake of being closed-minded and myopic simply because each situation is different? If we have learned anything from history, it's that too often scientific discovery is hindered by nay-sayers who rule out possibilities based on theoretical/mathematical evidence. Saying "there is no alien life, because Fermi's theory proves it, and because SETI hasn't found anything" is very much akin to the thinking of the Postmaster General I cited above, or any of the other disproven theories I mentioned.
Chairman_Kaga
Founder of the Gourmet Gamer Academy
Anyone who thinks we the human race is the only intelligent life in the billions and billions and billions of stars in just the VISIBLE universe is practicing human arrogance in it's highest form.
It is outrageous to think that life could only possibly have evolved here, on earth. The probabilities dictate that there are indeed other civilizations out there in the vastness of space. And as for the nonsensical debate that begins with "Well, if they are out there...why haven't they tried to contact us?"; my answer is:
what makes you think they haven't?
Seti's track record has more to do with a lack of proper funding than anything else. They point a few (in relative terms) radio telescopes skyward for a few decades and hope. Given the limitations of "c" that means maximum range of 30 to 40 light years.
That's peanuts in the greater scheme of things.
I fully believe that there are other civilizations out there, but they are a little too busy to bother with an insignificant backwater world whose dominant species still hasn't even bothered to explore their home system yet.
There are far too many unknowns in the cosmos for any human to think they've got it all figured out.
It is outrageous to think that life could only possibly have evolved here, on earth. The probabilities dictate that there are indeed other civilizations out there in the vastness of space. And as for the nonsensical debate that begins with "Well, if they are out there...why haven't they tried to contact us?"; my answer is:
what makes you think they haven't?
Seti's track record has more to do with a lack of proper funding than anything else. They point a few (in relative terms) radio telescopes skyward for a few decades and hope. Given the limitations of "c" that means maximum range of 30 to 40 light years.
That's peanuts in the greater scheme of things.
I fully believe that there are other civilizations out there, but they are a little too busy to bother with an insignificant backwater world whose dominant species still hasn't even bothered to explore their home system yet.
There are far too many unknowns in the cosmos for any human to think they've got it all figured out.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Ashtal, I really encourage you to see the movie. Just as Unbreakable wasn't really about superheroes, Signs isn't really about crop circles. Instead, it uses all the fun, cheesy trappings of an alien movie to tell a tightly-focused story about a father, his younger brother, and his two children.
The aliens provide an enjoyable MacGuffin, a hook from which the story of loss and redemption hangs.
I laughed. I cried. It was better than Mars Attacks.
Daniel
The aliens provide an enjoyable MacGuffin, a hook from which the story of loss and redemption hangs.
I laughed. I cried. It was better than Mars Attacks.
Daniel
Andrew D. Gable
First Post
CWD said:
The thing is, the 1678 and previous crop circle phenomena is different than today's ones. These early crop circles were formed by the actual severance of the stalks - whereas the modern ones are formed by crushing and bending of the stalks. While I do think there may be something to the circles, I think this is just a coincidental similarity.
In general, I'm more open minded than a believer per se. I just try to look at these things skeptically, and evaluate all the facts.
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