[OT] Upon watching PJ butcher another's work.

[Assenpfeffer]

Re: Laughing on the outside...

Or "let's turn Glorfindel into a girl elf." Sheesh, imagine if they'd done something so, so egregiously "Hollywood" just to put a few more butts into theater seats...

In my view Glorfindel had to go one way or the other. There was just no way for the character to be included and be someone other than some random guy in a bit part. There were thus only two options:

1) Cut the whole sequence entirely, or rewite it so completely that no new character needs to be introduced there. Considering that the scene at the Ford of Bruinen marks the defeat of the Ringwraiths from the first film, cutting this scene means you have them throughout the movie, or you have to cut them entirely. The changes cascade from there until we're looking at something which doesn't resemble LotR much at all.

2) Replace Glorfindel with another character. The obvious choice, which Ralph Bakshi took, is Legolas. You'd have to handwave at a reason for him being there, but it could be done.

Then again, Legolas has lots to do throughout the three movies. There's plenty of time to have the spotlight on him. So if we have another character to swap out with Glorfindel, a character who can credibly be dropped into that spot, a character who desperately needs more things to do, who would benefit the most from some additional screen time... who would that character be?

I dunno. This change seems so logical to me, it makes so much sense as far as the movie's story is concerned, that I'm continually surprised at its being pointed out as an example of "Hollywoodizing" the books, or, even more foolishly, as some kind of weak point in the film.

 

[Assenpfeffer]

Just to throw into some support for Celebrim here,

Didn't ANYBODY notice that instead of being a noble king of Rohan, Theoden was reduced to a doddering, worthless old fool?

Nobody who didn't go into the movie with some kind of axe to grind, no.

Instead of sending his people to safety in the caves, and going himself to Helm's Deep, he brings them with him to certain death?

He does send them to the caves. In the movie's continuity, Helm's Deep is the only place of safety.

Instead of dealing with Grima as a noble king of fantasy would, he drunkenly chases him down the palace steps, swinging his sword, until Aragorn stops him?

He thinks about killing Wormtongue in the book, too.

you people actually think the movie's "everybody sucks but Aragorn! Lookit the PROTAGONIST!" theme didn't detract from the storyline?

Since most people didn't go into the theater with a deep desire to hate the movie, no.

These aren't minor changes, they're fundamental, and most importantly totally unnecessary changes to the story.

Funny. I heard the same thing about the fisrt movie from the same kind of people. Hm.

If he wants his own movie, he should write it himself instead of riding the coattails of a great writer.

He and his backers have paid for the right to ride those coattails.

 

[ninthcouncil]

When I think of all of the terrible choices that could have been made ("let's turn Legolas into a girl elf" or "let's turn Merry into a girl hobbit" or "let's try to squeeze these 3 books into one 2-hour movie") I feel grateful that such love, such care, such devotion have been poured into this trilogy.

God, I can see it now... all the hobbits written out except Frodo, who's played by Haley Joel Osment. The company is never split up, and Frodo gets to throw the ring in Mount Doom while Aragorn (Vin Diesel) and Boromir (The Rock) lay the smackdown on Sauron a couple of yards away. Then everyone goes to live happily ever after with Galadriel (Pamela Anderson). Fortunately, Tom Bombadil and his irritating little songs are still not in it.

Oh, PS - did I mention the elven ninjas?

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Oh, PS - did I mention the elven ninjas?

Are they fighting penguin zombies?

Otherwise.. I think that is just silly.

SD

 

[Olorin]

I was not impressed with the portrayal of Theoden either and I have no axe to grind.

He came across slightly better on my second viewing, but his strength was greatly diminished in the movie. In the books once he came to his senses and was freed from the thrall of Wormtongue, he was decisive and strong. The movie version seems weak.

He despairs much too easily, rather than choosing to sally forth in a glorious last charge of the Rohirrim, he has to be browbeaten into it by Aragorn.

I agree with whoever said they are making most of the secondary characters seem weak or foolish compared to Aragorn to hammer in his greatness to the casual viewers.

 

[Mulkhoran]

He does send them to the caves. In the movie's continuity, Helm's Deep is the only place of safety.

Good point, although I think it's that change to the movie's continuity that bothers me. They removed the "additional" caves in order to support Theoden's newly-written weaknesses.

He thinks about killing Wormtongue in the book, too.

He *PARDONS* Wormtongue in the book. He gives him the option of swearing his allegiance, and riding with him to war vs. Saruman. He sends someone to ensure that he gets out of Rohan alive, after Grima spits on the floor and runs. Almost EVERYBODY ELSE wants him dead. He doesn't chase him down the steps of his house, only to be held back by an outsider with a cliched line.

I'll freely admit that this is colored by the fact that Theoden was one of my favorite characters, and to see him reduced to a fool - "It's all over, it's all over......the end, the end!" - just to support Aragorn as the Great Hero(tm) is extremely sad. It didn't need to be this way.

Since most people didn't go into the theater with a deep desire to hate the movie, no.


Funny. I heard the same thing about the fisrt movie from the same kind of people. Hm.

Clearly, you didn't read what I wrote. I'll say it again, for your sole benefit. I *loved* the first movie, and loved the extended edition even more. It was *exactly* how the movie should have been brought to the screen.

I waited a year for this movie, and if anything, went into the theater with a deep desire to love it. So much for your pointless and inflamatory assumptions.

He and his backers have paid for the right to ride those coattails.

Be that as it may, it's still a bait-and-switch. Why was the first movie such a good rendition of the first book, if he was just going to re-write whatever he wanted? Because he wanted to get people into the theater for the second movie, that's why. I don't hate the man, but I don't respect him either. He's showed how little he cares about the work he's using.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

He despairs much too easily, rather than choosing to sally forth in a glorious last charge of the Rohirrim, he has to be browbeaten into it by Aragorn.

I agree with whoever said they are making most of the secondary characters seem weak or foolish compared to Aragorn to hammer in his greatness to the casual viewers.

I thought it was to show Aragorn's growing into becoming a leader.

SD

 

[EricNoah]

I think we'll see Theoden come around fully when he finally confronts Saruman at Orthanc in film 3.

 

[Assenpfeffer]

I was not impressed with the portrayal of Theoden either and I have no axe to grind.

It's funny how all these guys with screen names right from Tolkien "have no axe to grind."

Just saying.

 

[Mulkhoran]

God, I can see it now... all the hobbits written out except Frodo, who's played by Haley Joel Osment. The company is never split up, and Frodo gets to throw the ring in Mount Doom while Aragorn (Vin Diesel) and Boromir (The Rock) lay the smackdown on Sauron a couple of yards away. Then everyone goes to live happily ever after with Galadriel (Pamela Anderson). Fortunately, Tom Bombadil and his irritating little songs are still not in it.

Oh, PS - did I mention the elven ninjas?

Just to add to this, on the commentary on the 4-disc version, there are some *horribly* frightening suggestions about some of the things that were almost done. Here's two I remember.

1.) Ian McKellen talking about how they seriously considered having Gandalf give up smoking to "modernize" the movie, and chew on taffy instead. I swear I am not making this up.

2.) Having Frodo do the voice over in the prologue. (Yay! First minutes of the movie and we know Frodo lives!)


And the thing about Aragorn fighting a manifested, material Sauron is not something I've completely ruled out, and ranks high in my fears of what might be in RotK. They *are* lacking a major fight scene for him, you know...............................