Our KOTS TPK (Warning: KOTS spoiler info)

[ExploderWizard]

Ok, so we had our first 4E TPK. The encounter in question was with the Irontooth gang. I wished that the waterfall entrance to the cave included a swirling portal, at least that would have been some type of warning.

4E as a whole may not be completely a videogame but this adventure sure is. Without a doubt, this encounter is a mini instance with Irontooth as a boss mob. 4E needs expanded rules for recovering your corpse or at least a spirit healer in Winterhaven.

The fight was more than a good challenge before Irontooth showed up. We had a warlock and cleric down, and the ranger (me), a rogue , and the fighter (badly wounded) still fighting. There was a dragonshield, the kobold caster, and a skirmisher still up when Irontooth came out to kill us. The fighter and rogue went to work on him ( I was busy trying to keep the other guys occupied) and were already hurt , having used second wind (the cleric used both healing words before dropping). They managed to get him bloodied after doing enough damage to just about KILL 2 dragonshields. We laughed at that point knowing we were doomed.

Thats when the fun really started. Now Irontooth was healing every round (just because) and doing about double damage per hit. It only took about four rounds of action to finish the party off. The entire encounter lasted 16 rounds, consumed the the whole session and wiped the whole group and it wasn't even the ultimate showdown encounter.

After the adventure we started discussing tactics and what we could have done differently that would have made a real difference in the outcome. The only thing that would have had a major impact was if we all targeted Irontooth at the start (somehow knowing exactly where he was) and focused our At-will powers on him till he was bloodied (knowing to save our high impacts for this moment), then threw out the encounter and daily powers to finish him off.

Not having read the module, were there sources of information available in town that would provide any clues or information about Irontooth's capabilities? We interrogated a kobold and found out that they had a leader named Irontooth who was "not a kobold" and that he scared the kobolds but thats it. Was there something in town that could provide info about what Irontooth could do that we just missed?

If not, then aside from using metagame knowledge, the same thing will happen to the next group of PC's. Unless the next party "knows" where Irontooth is at the start of the encounter and exactly how to target him, and to save big powers till the bloodied stage the same thing is likely to happen.

This is why the adventure reminds me so much of a videogame. Its designed so that you need to die a few times to learn the boss fight. In a video game its expected that this kind of stuff happens but in a tabletop rpg it just ruins continuity.

 

[Gundark]

4E as a whole may not be completely a videogame but this adventure sure is. Without a doubt, this encounter is a mini instance with Irontooth as a boss mob. 4E needs expanded rules for recovering your corpse or at least a spirit healer in Winterhaven.

Well hopefully they reset the instance and ran it again right? Hopfully one of the party had a high level come from their guild to help.

Oh and hopefully WoTC will change the drops that Irontooth has, they suck.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Well they reset the instance and ran it again right? Hopfully one of the party had a high level come from their guild to help.

LOL!! Not yet. We will be restarting the adventure in a couple weeks with a new group of victims. We already have 5 so a high level couldn't come with us unless we form a raid group, and then we can't complete quests Ah well so it goes.

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

The fight was more than a good challenge before Irontooth showed up. We had a warlock and cleric down, and the ranger (me), a rogue , and the fighter (badly wounded) still fighting. There was a dragonshield, the kobold caster, and a skirmisher still up when Irontooth came out to kill us. The fighter and rogue went to work on him ( I was busy trying to keep the other guys occupied) and were already hurt , having used second wind (the cleric used both healing words before dropping). They managed to get him bloodied after doing enough damage to just about KILL 2 dragonshields. We laughed at that point knowing we were doomed.

I was concerned about this encounter when I ran it for our group. The group was Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, and Warlock. Sure, 6 > 5, but the big difference was the Wizard. Scorching Blast and Burning Hands did a brilliant job of clearing out the minions. I really think the key to this fight is the Wizard and their ability to clear out large swarms of minions.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I was concerned about this encounter when I ran it for our group. The group was Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, and Warlock. Sure, 6 > 5, but the big difference was the Wizard. Scorching Blast and Burning Hands did a brilliant job of clearing out the minions. I really think the key to this fight is the Wizard and their ability to clear out large swarms of minions.

An extra party member is a big help no doubt. We didn't have a wizard but our fighter was a dragonborn and wasted 3 minions with a breath attack and killed a 4th with his axe in one round. I'm not sure if a wizard could have done a lot more.

We are going to find out though. My next character will be a wizard instead of a ranger.

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

An extra party member is a big help no doubt. We didn't have a wizard but our fighter was a dragonborn and wasted 3 minions with a breath attack and killed a 4th with his axe in one round. I'm not sure if a wizard could have done a lot more.

We are going to find out though. My next character will be a wizard instead of a ranger.

The Fighter was up and down the entire fight. He did a great job of soaking damage (of course, he took a ton of damage as a result). The Rogue (IIRC) fell in the last round of combat. So our group did have 2 members fall during the fight.

The Wizard is uncanny when it comes to minions. Each round he was attacking at least 3 targets. Plus, the Paladin was a Dragonborn too, so he helped in minion control.

With the Cleric and Paladin, our group also had more healing power then your group did. Plus, the Cleric was up when Irontooth showed up.

Wizard is an odd class. In my experience they really, really shine when there are multiple targets on the battlefield. In a solo fight though, they are very average if not out right bad. Of course, I've only played a Wizard 1-4 and that Wizard is very, very focused on control.

 

[satin]

The party I am playing in bought a few healing potions before the Irontooth fight, and that really saved our skin. We had 2-3 PCs (out of 5) down at the end of it.

That, and focusing fire helped a lot.

 

[Maggan]

Not having read the module, were there sources of information available in town that would provide any clues or information about Irontooth's capabilities?

As far as I know, no there is no way to get clues about his capabilities. But he hasn't got any mystical abilities that warrants such a foreshadowing IMO; he hits hard with his axe, sometimes double-striking, and he heals 5 HP at the end of his turn when bloodied. That's it basically.

Of course the DM could have put something in to warn your party, along the lines of "Watch out for his twin-strike with his axe, and be warned that he recuperates quickly after being hit a lot". But somewho I don't think that would have helped a lot, since there wouldn't have been any clues as to how to counter those aspects of Irontooth.

This is why the adventure reminds me so much of a videogame. Its designed so that you need to die a few times to learn the boss fight. In a video game its expected that this kind of stuff happens but in a tabletop rpg it just ruins continuity.

There's been a few polls on this, and the verdict is not conclusive. Some say it's a TPK waiting to happen, many say they managed without any PC deaths.

For us it went something like this:

A half-elf ranger, a tiefling warlord, an eladrin rogue, a dragonborn fighter and a dwarven cleric makes up the party.

We surprised the kobolds outside the cave, and promptly managed to destroy them without too much damage taken. I think it took three rounds. A couple of healing surges and a Short rest took care of that.

Next we went into the caves. Thanks to the breath weapon of the dragonborn and some kinda blast from the warlord, as well as some fancy footwork, we took out a bunch of kobolds in another three rounds, before Irontooth and the warpriest and his skirmishers came into play.

The fighter locked down Irontooth, and thanks to the DM rolling badly, he survived for four rounds without getting hit. By then the warpriest had been hunted down and destroyed by the ranger, and the warlord, cleric and rogue mopped up the skirmishers.

Then we all ganged up on Irontooth, and then he wielded the axe like a true champion. Down went the rogue, and the fighter sustained heavy damage. Nothing a second wind didn't fix, and as the cleric healed the rogue, we quickly flanked the axe-wielder. A mighty attack by the fighter and a backstab by the rogue took down Irontooth.

So in the end; one PC below zero, three dropped to bloodied. For us, the encounter was interesting, but not terribly challenging for our PCs. I certainly don't see it as evidence of KotS being a videogame on paper.

/M

 

[ExploderWizard]

As far as I know, no there is no way to get clues about his capabilities. But he hasn't got any mystical abilities that warrants such a foreshadowing IMO; he hits hard with his axe, sometimes double-striking, and he heals 5 HP at the end of his turn when bloodied. That's it basically.

I am a little familliar with the goblin rage thing. Do you by chance know what orifice he is pulling that healing from?

Of course the DM could have put something in to warn your party, along the lines of "Watch out for his twin-strike with his axe, and be warned that he recuperates quickly after being hit a lot". But somewho I don't think that would have helped a lot, since there wouldn't have been any clues as to how to counter those aspects of Irontooth.

Perhaps not, but if we knew about the possibility then we would have saved our better powers for him for sure.

There's been a few polls on this, and the verdict is not conclusive. Some say it's a TPK waiting to happen, many say they managed without any PC deaths.

For us it went something like this:

A half-elf ranger, a tiefling warlord, an eladrin rogue, a dragonborn fighter and a dwarven cleric makes up the party.

We surprised the kobolds outside the cave, and promptly managed to destroy them without too much damage taken. I think it took three rounds. A couple of healing surges and a Short rest took care of that.

Next we went into the caves. Thanks to the breath weapon of the dragonborn and some kinda blast from the warlord, as well as some fancy footwork, we took out a bunch of kobolds in another three rounds, before Irontooth and the warpriest and his skirmishers came into play.

The fighter locked down Irontooth, and thanks to the DM rolling badly, he survived for four rounds without getting hit. By then the warpriest had been hunted down and destroyed by the ranger, and the warlord, cleric and rogue mopped up the skirmishers.

Then we all ganged up on Irontooth, and then he wielded the axe like a true champion. Down went the rogue, and the fighter sustained heavy damage. Nothing a second wind didn't fix, and as the cleric healed the rogue, we quickly flanked the axe-wielder. A mighty attack by the fighter and a backstab by the rogue took down Irontooth.

So in the end; one PC below zero, three dropped to bloodied. For us, the encounter was interesting, but not terribly challenging for our PCs. I certainly don't see it as evidence of KotS being a videogame on paper.

/M

WOW. Were those four misses rolled in the open or do you think your DM had some mercy? I'm not familliar with your DM's style, so its impossible to guess. It was extremely lucky that Irontooth didn't demolish the fighter before everyone could gang up on him. I would have to say that streak of fortune is what made the encounter " not terribly challenging".

Then again, extreme luck one way or the other is often the difference between life and death.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I ran two different groups through this encounter. One veteran group and one extremely novice (my wife, her two sisters and my 7-year-old son).

Both groups had 5 PCs. Both encounters one of the outside kobolds made it inside to warn Irontooth. Both groups took a short rest before entering. So both groups faced the full inside force from round 1.

The veteran group had a difficult fight, but no one was down at the end of the fight.

The novice group was a TPK.