Mithreinmaethor
First Post
When we ran our 1st games we didnt realize that your healing surges heal you from your 0 hp state and not the negative hp state. Made some people burn a few more Healing Surges than needed.
Out of Healing Surges - what now?
- Thread starter FunkBGR
- Start date
Well, I think one of the better options is to role-play through it and keep the danger in mind. Portray the character as seriously injured. There isn't a whole lot more "suck it up" left in the old tank. Another good shot at that exposed rib / leg / whatever injury and he's going to be out for the count. He'll do his best (fighting at full combat ability), but he's precariously close to being taken down for good.
The Paladin can help with some support, but until the party has enough time to do some serious medical treatment and give his body a chance to recover (extended rest) this character isn't up for a whole lot of punishment.
The other characters in the party should respond to this - defending their comrade, providing him cover - etc. Likewise, that character may have to focus on making some ranged attacks and taking supporting actions for the last couple of encounters - unless the circumstance or opportunity looks so serious that he's willing to risk almost certain doom.
It adds drama, I suppose.
- Marty Lund
The Paladin can help with some support, but until the party has enough time to do some serious medical treatment and give his body a chance to recover (extended rest) this character isn't up for a whole lot of punishment.
The other characters in the party should respond to this - defending their comrade, providing him cover - etc. Likewise, that character may have to focus on making some ranged attacks and taking supporting actions for the last couple of encounters - unless the circumstance or opportunity looks so serious that he's willing to risk almost certain doom.
It adds drama, I suppose.
- Marty Lund
2eBladeSinger
First Post
Kraydak said:
You’re assuming that there IS a problem with the adventure design and that the lack of surges was not the result of a) poor player/group resource management or b) bad luck.
Kraydak said:
If fudging is obvious, then, yes, it suspends disbelief – part of being a good DM is being able to fudge without making it obvious to the players that one is doing so. Fudging is such a staple of the DMs job, I can’t imagine running an entire campaign without doing it. Being ‘honest’ with the players and introducing meta-game solutions to correct ‘poor adventure design’ will absolutely break the flow of the game – I can’t see how that is a better solution than that which I suggested.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Ok, so the guy is out of surges.
He's not likely to actually DIE unless the party TPKs or they decide to flee a fight and leave him behind. There's a pretty big buffer on the negative side of zero. Additionally, isn't there a healing check to wake someone up when they're unconscious?
Giving him surges from the paladin seems like a decent idea. I'd wait till he goes down first though, just to drive home the point.
Finally - from here on, the rest of the party might be more inclined to monitor his resources. I know that in our first trial combat to learn the rules, the group's defender got taken out. Everyone was on full surges, and there were 3 uses of inspiring word left in the party, so it's not like healing wasn't available. Once we started the game for real, the warlord and warlord multiclass characters started paying attention to how much damage party members were taking, and asking how much other characters were down by.
Finally - how did he get to the stage where he was out of surges while the rest of the party is untouched? From the sounds of things, he's just ticking off surges quietly without announcing their use - he could be getting a significant boost to each surge by telling party members when he's about to use them. How did he take so much damage in the first place? Is he fighting off on his own, far away from the defender? Is he taking risks for little benefit (ie - attracting lots of OAs)? Or maybe he is the party defender - Did he pick stats that let him perform the role effectively?
As a non-defender character, I found myself taking almost zero damage while I stayed near our party defender. For melee attacks, he can easily make himself the target of most threats, and for ranged he provides cover.
He's not likely to actually DIE unless the party TPKs or they decide to flee a fight and leave him behind. There's a pretty big buffer on the negative side of zero. Additionally, isn't there a healing check to wake someone up when they're unconscious?
Giving him surges from the paladin seems like a decent idea. I'd wait till he goes down first though, just to drive home the point.
Finally - from here on, the rest of the party might be more inclined to monitor his resources. I know that in our first trial combat to learn the rules, the group's defender got taken out. Everyone was on full surges, and there were 3 uses of inspiring word left in the party, so it's not like healing wasn't available. Once we started the game for real, the warlord and warlord multiclass characters started paying attention to how much damage party members were taking, and asking how much other characters were down by.
Finally - how did he get to the stage where he was out of surges while the rest of the party is untouched? From the sounds of things, he's just ticking off surges quietly without announcing their use - he could be getting a significant boost to each surge by telling party members when he's about to use them. How did he take so much damage in the first place? Is he fighting off on his own, far away from the defender? Is he taking risks for little benefit (ie - attracting lots of OAs)? Or maybe he is the party defender - Did he pick stats that let him perform the role effectively?
As a non-defender character, I found myself taking almost zero damage while I stayed near our party defender. For melee attacks, he can easily make himself the target of most threats, and for ranged he provides cover.
Mouseferatu
Hero
Lizard said:
Someone alert the media. I agree with Lizard on something 4E-related.
Twice in my current campaign, I've been the guy to run out of healing surges. (I'm playing a fairly reckless rogue.) Sure, if we can stop and rest, I'd like the party to do so. But in both cases, we weren't in a position to do so, so I sucked it up, took the risk, role-played the fact that I was in bad shape, and went on.
Henry
Autoexreginated
Mouseferatu said:Someone alert the media. I agree with Lizard on something 4E-related.
Twice in my current campaign, I've been the guy to run out of healing surges. (I'm playing a fairly reckless rogue.) Sure, if we can stop and rest, I'd like the party to do so. But in both cases, we weren't in a position to do so, so I sucked it up, took the risk, role-played the fact that I was in bad shape, and went on.
Me three.
Any game with die rolls is going to have times that players get screwed - it's the nature of ANY random game. 4e has worked to minimize quite a lot of those arbitrary random death events, but to take them out completely is to remove all challenge from calling it a game. However, I think Kraydak has a good point - it'd be better to just give the group an option to rest than make up some special corner-case option just for that one player - because then the rest of the group is going to expect the same for themselves when it happens, and then you'll REALLY suck the challenge of the game up a straw.
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
I, myself, cannot fall into the "suck it up" camp.
Because this is a converted module not built for this edition, put together with FUNDAMENTAL game-rule assumptions not available in this edition.
Even if he used more healing surges than he necessarily SHOULD have, that there's no learning curve available because of the GM's choice of module, frankly, sucks. It's akin to telling people to suit up for a game of football and then being confused to find a field full of people in pads and helmets while the other team runs on with a soccer ball.
Last edition, littering an adventure with healing potions meant the designer recognized that he was, essentially, putting "too many" encounters into the adventure, but was compensating by providing a consumable resource to balance the party running out of healing.
Now, however, healing uses an entirely different mechanic and you can't toss in extra healing potions to allow the party to get through too many encounters in a day.
In 4E I'm sure designers will be thinking things like: "Okay, given that the tank should have 13 surges, and probably will use 3-4 per encounter, after 4-5 encounters I'll need to write in some method for an extended rest or there'll be a TPK."
Now, if the tank uses poor planning and needs 5 surges per encounter, and after the third encounter is over is entirely tapped out, then that's sort of on them. That is bad luck, poor management, whatever. When, given a reasonable expectation of behavior from the designer, the party fails, that's on them.
But if the only means to success is an assumption of UNREASONABLE behavior on the part of the designer, that's poor design. If the party has to search the king's bathroom to find a button under the sink to get to the win parameters, but there's nothing else in the whole module about a sink or a bathroom and the bathroom is just a numbered room with an S in it on the GM's map ... that's kind of unreasonable. If the designer expected the tank to use up only one healing surge per encounter, or have a specific feat, or have 20 Con, or be a Dragonborn, that's unreasonable win parameters.
Same if, say, we are playing a 3rd edition game with a 4th edition module, and there's an assumption built-in that everybody will have At Will powers, or that the healer should have 2 heals per encounter every encounter, or nobody needs The Big Six at mid-high level games, etc, and so the 3rd edition party fails to meet win criteria ... is that their fault for having poor planning to not take into account something that is totally different between editions?
I would, myself, just say: "Y'know, this is a converted adventure, the assumptions here are different, I can see they intended to give you additional longevity, so for this one when you guys reach a milestone you get back your Con bonus in Healing Surges OR an action point, whichever."
The base mechanic of the Milestone is there. It's a special-case sort of thing, and prime for this sort of additional rule. If Milestones get rid of "Res Sickness", then they can probably give you more Healing Surges. Doesn't have to be a house rule, just something to account for the differences in editions. Be honest, give them a tough choice, they'll appreciate it and the game will move on.
That's me, though.
--fje
Because this is a converted module not built for this edition, put together with FUNDAMENTAL game-rule assumptions not available in this edition.
Even if he used more healing surges than he necessarily SHOULD have, that there's no learning curve available because of the GM's choice of module, frankly, sucks. It's akin to telling people to suit up for a game of football and then being confused to find a field full of people in pads and helmets while the other team runs on with a soccer ball.
Last edition, littering an adventure with healing potions meant the designer recognized that he was, essentially, putting "too many" encounters into the adventure, but was compensating by providing a consumable resource to balance the party running out of healing.
Now, however, healing uses an entirely different mechanic and you can't toss in extra healing potions to allow the party to get through too many encounters in a day.
In 4E I'm sure designers will be thinking things like: "Okay, given that the tank should have 13 surges, and probably will use 3-4 per encounter, after 4-5 encounters I'll need to write in some method for an extended rest or there'll be a TPK."
Now, if the tank uses poor planning and needs 5 surges per encounter, and after the third encounter is over is entirely tapped out, then that's sort of on them. That is bad luck, poor management, whatever. When, given a reasonable expectation of behavior from the designer, the party fails, that's on them.
But if the only means to success is an assumption of UNREASONABLE behavior on the part of the designer, that's poor design. If the party has to search the king's bathroom to find a button under the sink to get to the win parameters, but there's nothing else in the whole module about a sink or a bathroom and the bathroom is just a numbered room with an S in it on the GM's map ... that's kind of unreasonable. If the designer expected the tank to use up only one healing surge per encounter, or have a specific feat, or have 20 Con, or be a Dragonborn, that's unreasonable win parameters.
Same if, say, we are playing a 3rd edition game with a 4th edition module, and there's an assumption built-in that everybody will have At Will powers, or that the healer should have 2 heals per encounter every encounter, or nobody needs The Big Six at mid-high level games, etc, and so the 3rd edition party fails to meet win criteria ... is that their fault for having poor planning to not take into account something that is totally different between editions?
I would, myself, just say: "Y'know, this is a converted adventure, the assumptions here are different, I can see they intended to give you additional longevity, so for this one when you guys reach a milestone you get back your Con bonus in Healing Surges OR an action point, whichever."
The base mechanic of the Milestone is there. It's a special-case sort of thing, and prime for this sort of additional rule. If Milestones get rid of "Res Sickness", then they can probably give you more Healing Surges. Doesn't have to be a house rule, just something to account for the differences in editions. Be honest, give them a tough choice, they'll appreciate it and the game will move on.
That's me, though.
--fje
nittanytbone
First Post
I think more detail is required. Another poster brought up the issue of him quietly marking off surges and that may well be an issue. I think part of the reason there's a Second Wind feature is to ensure that you get more bang from your buck out a friendly cleric or other leader. Using a cleric is much more efficient than burning your own surges.
Plus, it sounds like there is NO PROBLEM. There are two freakin' paladins in the party!! This guy has at least one surge left (from the heroic tier NPC).
Plus, it sounds like there is NO PROBLEM. There are two freakin' paladins in the party!! This guy has at least one surge left (from the heroic tier NPC).
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