Overpowered/Underpowered Spells?

[iwatt]

You didnt all spread out after the first one so you couldnt get hosed again ?
The cleric forgot to heal people ? Only the mage should be seriously hurt after the fireball as the rouge has improved evasion, as 30 (or 45 if empowered) average damage shouldnt put much dent in a level 15 tank. Assuming they having got fire resitance on their armor (Excellent buy at this level)

I mean, you havent given us every detail, but it sound like you guys major screwed up on that combat.

I cant even begin to play this out in my mind without the mage dying within a round or two after surpize. The first thing YOUR mage does (with his permanent see invis) is a targetted greater dispel magic at your assailant (rolling d20 +15 vs 22 against each and every spell on the enemy mage), then the druid does the same thing.
Oh look, there is this guy falling out the sky.. fighters go get him !

I just cant play this out where any of your party should get killed unless they fail both saving throws (except your mage)
And if you are going to post that your party members all have rubbish hp, you should fix that by level 15, you have plenty of gold. Our level 15 mage is well over 120hp as a drawf with an amulet of +4con. With racial saving throw bonus your asailant might have got him down to half hp... if that.

Majere
Notes poor play does not a poor class make

I agree with your first point that they shoudl have spread out at first.

But then you list a specific set of spells and items and conditions to follow to defeat this surprise attack over cross country territory. What, are all your PCs paranoid freaks that are expecting aerial ambushes all the time . I hate using the word "realistic" for DnD, but how real is this. Unless of course your DM is actually throwing Invisible aerial wizards at you all the time, there's no reason to have a complete set of spells ready for that condition. Maybe they were more worried about roaming bands of trolls, for example.

And not everyone is walking around with permanent see invisibilities all the time either. It does make sense (survival wise for wizards) but maybe the PC didn't want to take a 1,000 xp hit for it. This does not necessarily make the character unviable.

Basically (and I know I've kind of rambled on here ) It's really easy to dissect all they did wrong and how they should have handled it to survive. It's another thing to make the correct choices when the dice are rolling. And people make mistakes. My character almost died last session because I forgot to adjust my cohort 5'. And my DM is a crit rolling fiend

 

[Majere]

But then you list a specific set of spells and items and conditions to follow to defeat this surprise attack over cross country territory. What, are all your PCs paranoid freaks that are expecting aerial ambushes all the time . I hate using the word "realistic" for DnD, but how real is this. Unless of course your DM is actually throwing Invisible aerial wizards at you all the time, there's no reason to have a complete set of spells ready for that condition. Maybe they were more worried about roaming bands of trolls, for example.

And not everyone is walking around with permanent see invisibilities all the time either. It does make sense (survival wise for wizards) but maybe the PC didn't want to take a 1,000 xp hit for it. This does not necessarily make the character unviable.

Its 15th level
There are certain standard things. First off the only spells I mentioned were:
1) Healing from the cleric
-> Clerics get spontaineous cure spells so this insnt really asking a whole lot.

2) Greater Dispel magic
-> This spell is SO standard I cant believe anyone would quibble, its a gimmie, if you didnt learn it you have it on a scroll. I refuse to believe you play 15th level casters without dispel or greater dispel.

So the other question is permanent see invis.
Your 15th level, you will meet invisible flying X Y Z.
Our mage cleric and main fighter got permanent true sight as soon as they could. Yes its an investment, but weigh off 1000xp for casting it vs the deaths you avoid via pummelings from improved invis attackers like the one suggested in this thread. It takes alot of sting out of rogues and assassins with improved invis like a charm.

If this combat taught that level 15th party anything its that they should either have had permanent true sight/see invisibilities. Or they should have item equivalents. When your enemy can be EXPECTED to have access to invisibility, permanemt see invis is simply too good not to have, stick it on your rouge as well if you can.

Majere

 

[isoChron]

So the other question is permanent see invis.
Your 15th level, you will meet invisible flying X Y Z.
Our mage cleric and main fighter got permanent true sight as soon as they could.

I'm a bit confused. How do make a spell like true seeing permanent if not with the spell permanency ?
The spell has a very specific list of possible spells. See invisibility for example can not be cast on another person. This is explicitly mentioned in the description. And true seeing is not on the list.
As long as you want some spell made permanent, that's not on the list of permanency, you have to research this application which costs as much (time and money) as researching the selected spell. (just 3.0 rules; not even mentioned in 3.5 SRD)

By the way, you have to have the spell permanency itself in your repertoire. This was not the case with both of our wizards.

We don't have a magic walmart in our campaigns so it's not that easy to get exactly what you want. And if your character never encountered a permanency spell it's hard to find it in a catured spellbook. There are always other spells with similar interesting purposes. You have to decide what spell you write in your spell book, especially if you are low on money and time in a running campaign.

Yes its an investment, but weigh off 1000xp for casting it vs the deaths you avoid via pummelings from improved invis attackers like the one suggested in this thread. It takes alot of sting out of rogues and assassins with improved invis like a charm.

If this combat taught that level 15th party anything its that they should either have had permanent true sight/see invisibilities. Or they should have item equivalents. When your enemy can be EXPECTED to have access to invisibility, permanemt see invis is simply too good not to have, stick it on your rouge as well if you can.
Majere

The party is now level 18/19 and retired. But until the end of the days of that party, no one had a permanent spell. Contingency and greater contingency, yes, but no permanency.
If you encounter high level spell casters with MD and Greater Dispelling, it's just plain a waste of XP. First thing all highlevel BBE-wizards and Balors (had lots of them) did was Greater Dispelling. The chances were very low that this spell survived more than one day of encounter.

Sure, you can always say:"Uh ! Didn't they have this or that?".
We were equipped as the DMG character wealth proposed, some even better. But if you fight giants (trolls) and orkhordes and undead dragons you equip yourself a little different.
It's easy for me, too, to say that we should have won the encounter if we had done this or that first. But I ask you not to call our characters or their actions dumb or silly. It always depends on situation and equipment (a little to much on equipment if you ask me) and last but not least on the style you play D&D.


But back to topic.
We now play D&D 3.5+x (we have spontaneous casting for all classes now, a good thing but that doesn't belong here) and the animal buff spells are nearly never used in our poor equiped party. There are always better spells to cast in the short time of combat, even if you don't have to prepare spells. A 10 minute/level casting time would make them interesting for exploring a dungeon but 1 minute/level ist to short to cast them in advance. 1 hour was to long in higher levels in our experience.

Another hot topic is hunters mercy. This is just to good in the hands of a ranger with some levels of deepwood sniper and a burst bow.

 

[iwatt]

If this combat taught that level 15th party anything its that they should either have had permanent true sight/see invisibilities. Or they should have item equivalents. When your enemy can be EXPECTED to have access to invisibility, permanemt see invis is simply too good not to have, stick it on your rouge as well if you can.

Majere

I hoped they learnt this as well

It's just that I have a problem when somethings become a "must haves". I think it's a gut reaction

Clever DMs can always find a new way to beat PC tactics and gear. So nothing is a Must have. And this is possible without using to much metagaming even. Just replace the inv wiz with a flying druid. No need to be invisble then... Also, if this is the first time they were attacked by stealth artillery, there is no reason for them to have preemptive gear in the first place. I know that Ogre mages cast Cone of colds 1 per day, can fly and get Inv at will. My character only learns this once Shreck freezes his butt off and flies away.

Basically, the main point I was (trying) to make is that it's easy to find a way to beat an encounter after the fact, it's not that easy in the thick of things. The wiz got the drop on them (one spell) and then beat most of them in intiative. Add in no active protections (by the way you might as well add in contingency as a must have as well ) and the low hps members might get toasted (bad saving rolls ahppen to anyone). The paladin won initiative, and made the first mistake: stringing his bow. He should have spread out.

 

[Pax]

As I mentioned several times I want to make an encounter against a standard group containing that wizard. This encounter shouldn't use a magic using character class.
So no cleric with magic domain and no spells from other books/sources (since we restricted our list to PHB, DMG, MM, MM2, Monsters of Faerun, Magic of Faerun, S&F, S&F, MotW, T&B, DotF and FRCS; this is a list long enough to cause DM's headaches).

The point is, if YOU want to limit the playing field - butnot limit it to CORE only - then any imbalance which arises is your problem.

And I can't see how a spell get's balanced only if you allow other sources in your game. I always thought a spell must be balanced even if you you the PHB alone ... *Shrug*

Ideally, in a perfect world, yes. However, it isn't a perfect world, and D&D is not - nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be - an ideal set of mechanics and rules.

And again I ask you if you can throw a sack of flour 50ft up in the sky (given that the wizard is dumb enough to be directly above you as he sees you concentrating on the sky with a dusty sack in your hand ...).

There's no need to be directly above; anywhere within throwing distance.

And for a thrown weapon with no aerodynamics - yes, 50' is entirely doable.

So even if your ranged touch attack would hit at 50ft he isn't affected half of the time.

And the other half the time, it's [sulu]"target that explosion"[/sulu]. I'll take 50/50 odds of victory, over 100% chance of defeat, any day.

Then, frankly, yoru characters were dumb, and/or the GM outright hosed you. No defensive preparations? No Contingencies? You ALL lost initiative, and the GM decreed it was a surprise? And you were all riding that CLOSE together ... ?!?

Well I don't know how you travel overland in times of peace. we stick together and don't ride all along with 30ft distance between us. Remember we were 7 party members on the move through open country.

Assuming you were riding double-file (taking up 20' of road width to do so - horses are Large animals and have a 10' face), that's still a line of people 40' long.

And that assumes the horses ride nose-to-tail. Which horses WON'T do, peacefully, for any real length of time - I've actually ridden (and cared for, including mucking out stables (blecch)), and an extra 5' distance from the back of one horse to the head of another would have been about where the horses would finally have settled down and behaved themselves.

Yes sure we could all ride several tenth of feet apart and cast see invisibility the whole day over but that seems not very plausible for me.

At 15th level? One wonders why you were riding, especially on horses. No overland flight? No Teleportation Circle?

And, for very good reason, modern militaries don't march from point A to point B all bunched up, when in potentially-hostile territory. U.S.Army standard is 2m seperation; for extra caution, they might even open up to a 5m seperation. That means there's from two to five meters between one soldier, and the next one in line.

Specifically so that a single explosive, or a single long-burst from a machinegun (etc), doesn't take out the whole group.

And yes he surprised us. He fired out of the blue sky (invis., greater) so how should we not be surprised ???

At 15th level, you had NO protections? No means of warning yourselves? You deserved it.

And some of our group had a better INI than the wizi. The Paladin for example. He managed to get his bow and strung it ... before his horse (and most other) was blast to death by a fireball.

One fireball? Teh 15th-level Paladin's mount was toasted by ONE FIREBALL ... ?!? Okay, now I know you're making this up. No way in the Nine Hells does 10d6[fire] take out the mount of a Paladin(15) - not even empowered and maximised (which would require an 8th level slot, and an 11th level wizard doesn't GET those). So we're looking at, presumptively, a 60-point hit from a maximised fireball - whichowuld be the NPC wizard's single best spell for the day (if he was an evoker, he might've had another of hte same, but then that'd be IT for his 6th level spell slots).

Assuming a Light Warhorse as the base, a Paladin(15)'s mount would have Improved Evasion and 11d8 hit dice, with a +3 Constitution modifier, for 11d8+33. That means it should have had 82hp. If it FAILED the save, against TWO of those fireballs ... the horse woudl be badly hurt, BUT ALIVE. Improved Evasion - half damage, save for none.

As for that saving throw, it'd get the Paladin's save - base is +5, and it's safe to assume another (say) +7 between Dexterity, Charisma, Items, Feats, and/or Race. At 15th level, frankly, having less than +11 just from items and attributes would SHOCK me (+6 item for each of dex and charisma, and a direct +5 resistance bonus - assuming 10 innate scores for both attributes!).

But anyway, that's a +12 save bonus. A stock human Wiz(15) NPC has an Intelligence of no more than 22 (base 15, +3 from level, +4 from headband) - so the save for that Fireball was only DC (10 + 3 + 6 =) 19. If he took SF and GSF, that'd boost it to 21. The horse needed to roll a 9 or above to take NOTHING, or an 8 or below to take 30hp, from each maximised 11-die fireball.

*yawn* So, tell me again how a fireball toasted the mount?

The contingency was a Dim.Door in case some melee attacked the party wizard .... not very good against a casting wizard.

Not the brightest contingency in the universe. Wizard deserved what he got.

I don't think we played the characters dumb but simply realistic. Your character may ride apart from your companions and don't talk a word the whole boring day without reason. Our characters were friends with a life.

Actually, the party I played with for over a year (weekly games, mind) had two charactes on our wagon, and the other four in pairs before and behind, specifically leaving 10' gaps between the back of one group, and the front of the other. We conversed fine; that's conversational range with a mildly-raised voice, no big deal there.

And you can't target someone if you know the square but you can't see him. No targetted spells, only a very good chance to get him with area spells.

Glitterdust is an area spell, and solves every problem with targetting. And it's only second level - but it's SO useful, EVERY sorceror I play, will choose it unless it is completely opposed to that character's intended "theme"/feel/etc.

I'm a bit confused. How do make a spell like true seeing permanent if not with the spell permanency ?
The spell has a very specific list of possible spells. See invisibility for example can not be cast on another person. This is explicitly mentioned in the description. And true seeing is not on the list.
As long as you want some spell made permanent, that's not on the list of permanency, you have to research this application which costs as much (time and money) as researching the selected spell. (just 3.0 rules; not even mentioned in 3.5 SRD)

Scrolls are wonderful things, if you have the ranks of UMD to activate them successfully.

 

[Khristos]

Generally our campaign also has issues if players are overbuffed. I know my wizard usually isnt in Diplomacy situations because we take a negative if we are "buffed" as it is a sign of possible aggressive nature. I agree that greater Dispel magic is the mother's milk of wizardry( of course I also believe heavily in countermagic). That being said it is conceivable to wipe the floor with folks with a pair of spells (thanks to greater arcane sight) you just need to know which element(s) they are defending against.

P.S. hope they redo energy substitution in Complete Arcane... the current source material allowed doesnt have sonic damage as a substitute (curses 3.5). Luckily my fireballs sometimes become 8th level consecrated spells.... guess they werent immune to holy damage ( consecrated delayed blast fireball is a hoot)

 

[Plane Sailing]

1) Project image is used to resolve diffusion issues

I'm sorry, but I must have my stupid head on today. What do you mean by "resolve diffusion issues"?

Cheers

 

[strongbow]

Re-hijacking of thread

<Loads Wand of Fireball>

Salvo 1: Don't post extensive information about your home campaign beyond what is necessary to answer the question at hand. In fact, it is better to not post about your home campaign in the Rules forum at all if you can avoid it. Some parellels and DM decisions are nice and dandy, but giving the equipment breakdown of your party is off topic [ot]

Salvo 2: Getting bogged down on the particulars of a strategy when talking about some of these overpowered or underpowered spells/combos of these spells.

Salvo 3: Flaming a DM for letting things go on in his campaign. Man, Dm <insert name here> you suck because you let your players do <action y> or allow/disallow <option z> in your game.

Salvo 4: Killing that poor Paladin 15's horse with one fireball. LOL, LOL some more, ROTFL. It hurts when someone calls you out on the math, doesn't it? There might have been mitigating circumstances, but man that made this very ot thread for me, even if there was some reason why the mount should have died after only 1 fireball.

Salvo 5: Builder book spells reprinted in 3.5 by cutting and pasting with the same errors <cough Complete Divine cough>

Salvo 6: All the other hijackers out there.

In case any of you are thinking of replying, I have 44 charges left and Energy Immunity Fire.
<Sheathes and of Fireball>

 

[strongbow]

Mispost

 

[Majere]

"We don't have a magic walmart in our campaigns so it's not that easy to get exactly what you want. And if your character never encountered a permanency spell it's hard to find it in a catured spellbook. There are always other spells with similar interesting purposes. You have to decide what spell you write in your spell book, especially if you are low on money and time in a running campaign."

Irrelevant
Every Level a mage automatically researches two spells.
So A SMART mage would get a list of every spell he can buy, and then research spells not on that list as his freebies.

I also have to hold my hands up to s light mislead. The Fighter in our group has an item of permanent true seeing. This will probably not be available to most parties, but there is no real reason for spell casters not to have permanent see invis.

Majere
Avoids your slavos with a +25 Ref save an improved evasion !!