Overpowered/Underpowered Spells?

[Faerl'Elghinn]

More to the point, DMG under "Invisibility" (the example to the prior quote that got snipped from the SRD):

Does the term "object" necessarily include creature? I think the answer is still unclear. If the flour is essentially worn, it becomes clothing, and therefore is "tucked into" itself. Additionally, it would not be an item "picked up", as was mentioned in a previous post, but rather an item applied to one's person, which is an important differentiation to make.

 

[dcollins]

Does the term "object" necessarily include creature?

Yes, in this context. There's not much need to "keep track of its position" for inanimate obects, that seems only relevant to creatures.

But you seem pretty determined to discount this rule, so decide whatever you want for your own game and have fun.

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

Yes, in this context. There's not much need to "keep track of its position" for inanimate obects, that seems only relevant to creatures.

But you seem pretty determined to discount this rule, so decide whatever you want for your own game and have fun.

Nah- on the contrary, I think it's a brilliant idea- I'm just playing the devil's advocate, as the assumption that it would work just strikes me as essentially flawed given the nature of the Invisibility spell, regardless of what the official or widely presumed official ruling for the sake of balance may be. Sorry to be an off-topic threadjacker, all. I'm just bored.

 

[Majere]

That kind of charting totally reaks of min/max power-gaming. If that's your style, so be it. This group isn't into that. Sure they may not be the most effecient with their items list for their cash, but they are a lot more unique and interesting due to their choices.

The problem seems to be one of perspective. Some players are always going to look things to optimize effeciency, opting to own the most powerful item setup they can obtain at each price point. Fortunately, I don't have those kinds of players. There's no rule that says characters need to have a stat boost item at any certain level, and nothing that says the DM has to hand those specific items out either. And these characters are successful, so there's certainly evidence that such items are not necessary for success.

Personnally I find that attitude offensive.
Player characters are NOT stupid, they know the prices and effectiveness of items.

If I tgave you the option of buying a power drill with a magnetic screwdriver head built in for £200, or buying a power driver for £100 and a magnetic screw bit for £50 which one would you buy ?

These items are tools, and unless you are roleplaying an imbecile no intellegant character would NOT pick the best value for money.

Ive played in games where I got to 9th level and didnt have a SINGLE magic item. NOT A SINGLE ONE.
And I didnt object and I had fun. However this is a RULES forum, itis based about the RULES as printed in the DMG and the DMG has a printed wealth by level and a HIGH magic game setting. Insulting me for playing a character by the game AS WRITTEN is frankly rude.

The spells as written are some of the weakest in the game, make them 10 minutes per level.

Majere

 

[Scion]

I've been debating whether or not to simply make the 3.5 buffs into 1st level spells actually. Havent decided yet though.

As for overpowered spells, silence is way up the list

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

The spells as written are some of the weakest in the game, make them 10 minutes per level.

On the contrary, I find them to be far from the bottom of the list as written when compared to similar spells in previous editions. In my opinion, people's current perspectives are vastly skewed by the original versions of the spells which, as written, had they been 3rd level spells, would have run a hard race against Fireball in consideration for the repertoire of many a wizard. Granted, large stat boosts are substantially less beneficial in the new rules than in earlier editions, but are still not something at which to be scoffed.

My profile of an effective spellcaster is generally one who takes his position behind the front lines, granting power to combatants in order to make them more effective, and occasionally launching an offensive spell of his own, in which case the fact that the spells are most effectively cast at the beginning of combat is less of an issue, as combatants are still free to engage immediately.

That said, I don't feel that 10 minutes per level would be excessive, as this will still often require characters to save these spells until the beginning of combat, save for the times when a large encounter is expected, at which point I feel that it is usually fair to provide PCs with ample time to prepare.

At higher levels, a longer duration can still be achieved through the Persistent Spell feat, although the spells would require 6th-level spell slots. Often, however, an effectively permanent +4 boost to an ability score would be worth the sacrifice.

 

[Khristos]

1) Project image is used to resolve diffusion issues
a) also as an illusion it can receive the illusion known as silence via scroll and cast it on itself

2) Buff spells are fine as they are. The mass versions are a bit underpowered though for the level

3) For the person questioning the magic items of players.
A) when presenting views on a rules board I always use the "default" setting of the game as it allows a common point for people to differ from, Thus by DMG standards a character will have x gps of items at a given level.

B) My wizard Deus is 7 years in the play so actually some of his magic item accrual would be terrifying under the rules (espec those received in 2nd ed incarnation). He was 12th in 2nd ed and is finally a solid 19 in 3.5 ( He has seen the white light a few times). Additionally as I got many feats in the conversion and was allowed to exchange 2 feats in 3.5 enhancement I have always been able to craft rods and since my wizzie is a metamagic addict I crafted metamagic rods.

4) I apologise if my previous posting seemed harsh. It was not intended as such.

 

[iwatt]

If you character are in a game where they only fight for 16 minutes a day (at most), then yes the buffs look nice, and I bet your spell casters seem massively out of whack for they can dump every spell they have in just 16 minutes.

There really is something seriously out of whack if PCs are walking through combat in 16 minutes. What are they doing the 23:44 other minutes. More importantly, what the hell are your NPCs and monsters doing? Just waiting there, with a big target painted on their chests? If PCs are buffing to create unstoppable uber-combat freaks that last 16 minutes, guess what you ( as a DM) have to do.....hide the monsters for 16 minutes and 1 second. then go ahead and whack the PCs.

I'm whith Majere, spellcasting is really unbalanced when you allow PCs the aforementioned behavior. Unlike pregenerated modules, the world (even a fantasy one) is not static. Monsters shouldn't fight to the death, they shouldn't be stuck in a room. This doesn't mean they should be run as tactical geniuses, but a degree of monster self preservations goes along way in curbing PC power.

As a side note, I have a 13th Level melee (Strength and War) cleric that can singlehandedly demolish any creature 4 CR above his level. Of course this assumes I have enough time to buff myself apropriately. Guess what, unless we're fihghting golems or really stupid undead, I never get the chance. And I have no problem with this.

Thts's why I stick to my guns and say that the Buff spells with a 10/Lev aren't unbalanced.

And I insist, Hunters Mercy added to a Deepwood Sniper, coupled with a burst weapon (only time this enchantment is worth it by the way) is the sickest combination ever.....sorry, add in 3 levels of Peerlees archer (for Power shot) and watch dragons die.

 

[Kalendraf]

Personnally I find that attitude offensive.
These items are tools, and unless you are roleplaying an imbecile no intellegant character would NOT pick the best value for money.

If this were true, then everyone would buy and have virtually identical equipment each level. Humans don't behave that way, and I doubt other races do either.

For a better modern day example, consider something like Consumer Reports or the trade magazine of your choice that does a careful study of products and finally determines what are the best and worst buys. If all people acted as you suggest, then the only product that would ever sell any copies at all would be the recommended best buy. That doesn't happen. Quite often, the worst items actually sell quite well for a variety of reasons. Often people think it's a good deal even though it may not be. Perhaps the buyer liked the brand (equivalent to craftsmen in a fantasy world) or perhaps they had a similar item in the past and just want a newer one. It's also possible they simply have different tastes or aesthetic values.

Variety is the key here. Some folks would rather have that big TV, others just want a better sound system, and still others will hang onto their old equipment until it quits working. Adventurers will likely have similar purchasing habits but instead they'd be favoring weapons vs. armor vs. wondrous items.

Something else to consider is that magic may be mysterious...likely as mysterious as technology is to some modern day folks such as those who can't set their VCR's. Another example - Is it better to have more ram vs. a faster cpu vs. a bigger hard drive vs. the newest video card in your computer? The same kind of confusion could easily exist in a fantasy world with characters pondering if its better to buy that cloak or those gloves or those boots or that amulet, etc.

Insulting me for playing a character by the game AS WRITTEN is frankly rude.

I was not trying to insult you. Rather I'm trying to point out that this type of thinking is essentially power-gaming. Of course, thinking like a power-gamer and being one are not the same thing, and I'm not accusing you of being one. However, your comments imply a certain play style that leans in that direction. FYI, I see power-gamers as being just another breed of gamer, neither good nor bad. In fact, we owe a lot of thanks to power-gamers since they are often the ones who find the loopholes in game rules and uncover the balance issues that need to be fixed. However, I do personally prefer for my players to not min/max the game to death, and I am quite thankful that the ones I DM for don't do that.

If you think that "playing a character by the game AS WRITTEN" means you have to min/max your item purchases to obtain maximum effectiveness per gold spent, then go ahead do that. As long as you, your DM and other players are enjoying yourselves, that's really what counts. Just don't expect every other player or DM to behave that way.

The spells as written are some of the weakest in the game, make them 10 minutes per level.

We tried that, but they were still too powerful with that long of a duration. Every 2nd level spell slot was a buff spell on the spellcasters wound up being used for buff spells. That is a clear sign that they are too good compared to the other 2nd level spells. When we dropped them down to 1 min/level, they started being mixed with other 2nd level spells like they should be. Hence, the evidence from my campaigns suggests the current 1 min/level is the balanced duration for the buff spells.

 

[iwatt]

We tried that, but they were still too powerful with that long of a duration. Every 2nd level spell slot was a buff spell on the spellcasters wound up being used for buff spells. That is a clear sign that they are too good compared to the other 2nd level spells.

Try using ability draining monsters. Start seeing a resurgence in Lesser restoration. A whole flock of stirges is still a threat for PCs of any level.

Also, Silence is a second level spell. I think this is one of the better spells (many wouls still take it as a 3rd level IMO). Even nerfed, Hold person is still a very good option (for clerics) at Lev 2. Shatter is pretty good (against enemy cleric´s holy symbols ) For mages you have Web, Invisibility, Scorching ray, etc.. Plenty of other spells. As mentioned before, if your players are all using up their 2nd level slots in the animal buffs, maybe you're running the game too fast. Try placing some traps. Taking 20 in your search checks really cuts into the duration of those spells.