Overpowered/Underpowered Spells?

[Ridley's Cohort]

How do you challenge this mage without magic ??? The fighter gets all the hits and can do nearly nothing. It's just stupid to have every encounter containing a magic user in order to challenge the mage.
And at some point it is nearly deadly for every other party member to travel with the mage to be challenged. Only exception may be the cleric with similar spells running.

Let me put it another way: If my high-level buffed-to-the-gills wizard could easily be defeated without resorting to any magic, why bother to play a wizard at all?

Now the example you cite could be defeated by even a party of grunts with a little foresight. Retreat to restricted terrain, then drive the wizard off with 16-20 +1 adamantine arrows per round. If just 25% find their mark, the wizard will flee in 2 rounds.

It does not actually take high level mojo to level the playing field significantly: Faerie Fire, Glitterdust, Potion of Flying, Scent (from a companion/cohort), Blindfight (go for a grapple).

It so happens that there are certain kinds of encounters that are much more difficult without the some key classes in the party. That is part of the D&D genre. If you want to play an adventuring party that is a bit outside of the box, the DM has to be helpful enough tweak the mix of encounters. Ever go up against undead without a cleric? Forget the turning, the damage, paralysis, and ability damage wears you down very quickly. Ever go up against the G-series without some THICK meatshields? It is hard to make progress if you cannot stand your ground for a couple rounds.

 

[Dark Dragon]

With a sack of flour and a strong arm. Or a pump-sprayer and a lot of paint. Seriously - the creature is invisible, not things you coat them with.

Blur and Improved Invisibility won't stack. They both provide a Concealment-based miss chance, and there's no way you can be more than totally concealed. The Blur spell is a waste.

Correct. But Blur would be fine if an opponent has See invisibility cast or a cleric with Insibility purge is around.

Mind Blank doesn't protect against blindsight, blindsense, or tremorsense. Nor does invisibility fully protect against such things, either. An archer with Blindsight and Improved Precise Shot laughs at invisible foes that don't get FAR away from them.

The spell Blindsight has a range of 30 ft., that's not very much. A flying caster will try to keep a greater distance if possible. Tremorsense wouldn't help to detect flying creatures and to get the blindsense ability, you have to shapechange into a dragon, IIRC. The feat blindsight (MoW) is available only to druids.
Mind Blank protects against EACH spell of the enchantment school, the whole day. An enchanter specialist will be quite frustated to face an enemy warded by that spell. A DM will be quite frustrated when an epic monster (say a LeShay) has no problems to charm the level 22 cleric and fighter buddies, but fails to handle the MB'ed wizzies without killing them (and even that will be not easy)

For a wizard, in 3.5 rules, what you've descried is a LOT of spells to cast:

• Mind Blank - 8th level spell
• Energy Immunity (Fire) - 7th level spell
• Energy Immunity (Cold) - 7th level spell
• Energy Immunity (Acid) - 7th level spell
• Energy Immunity (Sonic) - 7th level spell
• Energy Immunity (Electric) - 7th level spell
• Improved Invisibility - 4th level spell, only lasts 1 round per caster level
• Fly - 3d level spell

That's one eigth, one fourth, one third, and five seventh-level spells ... a not-inconsiderable investment.

Go with Protection from all Elements (6th, MoW) instead of Energy Immunity, lasts only 10 min/caster level, but wards against all energy types like Protection from Energy does against one type. Or use only one Energy Immunity (typical against fire, but depends on the campaign). Helps in most cases. Improved Invisibility is not always needed, depends on the opponents. Fly is a must in a non-dungeon fight.

One second-level spell later, and the Invisibility is no longer effective against any of yoru foes (your choice of three PHB spells, in fact: Invisibility Purge, See Invisible, or Glitterdust). And even without magic - someone with a (very) good Spot and/or Listen can possibly still pinpoint you - especially if you cast anything with a (V)erbal component.

Invisibility Purge will "uncloak" the party wizards as well under bad circumstances. But I don't consider Invisibilty as a problematic or overpowered spell. It's quite easy to see the foe or make him visible.

Meanwhile, once you're targettable, there are plenty of non-PHB evocations and other direct-damage spells which don't use Elemental damage. The Sky Is Falling (Sor/Wiz 3, IIRC), from the Fey Feature on WOTC's website, for example - a decent bucketful of damage, in the form of rocks falling from above. Completely nonelemental. Or Force Orb (Sor/Wiz 4) from Unapproachable East, for fireball-scale damage, but instead of being elemental damage ... it has the [force] descriptor.

Those spells are banned in the groups I'm part of. The rule is: If a splat book is owned by a player and the DM allows its use, the spells, feats, PrCs... can be used in the game. WotC enhancements are normally not allowed, but that depends on the DM. I'd take some new monsters from WotC's web side (the Time Dragon was really nice stuff). A stronger version of The Sky is Falling is Bombardement from Magic of Faerun (druid level 8, fixed 10d8 non-energy damage in an area, Ref for half and avoid being burried), quite nice and appropriate for level 8, IMHO.

Then there're necromantic, non-death-effects. Horrid Wilting, of course ... but also (from Savage Species) Dehydration ... a second-level single-target spell, with the same "sucks the moisture from yoru body" basis for it's damage.

And there's always the old standby ... disintegrate.

All of that, without ever once tossing out a dispel-like effect.

Yep, it comes down to these three or four spells to handle a MB'ed (level 8), blurring (level 3?), flying (level 3), spell turning (level 7), mirror imaged (level 2), shielded (level 1), perhaps stoneskinned and energy protected (level 3or 6)/resistant(level 2) wizard. Give him a scarab of protection (DMG) and he has a good protection against death effects.
But that's not the problem. The problem I have is, that some spells last too long. It is quite difficult to surprise a wizard with a monster that has its strength in mind attacks. Or the surprising attack of an enchanter. Or to survive in the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire without casting Energy Immunity (and having some EI in reserve). These spells can foil some good adventure hooks, and that I don't like.

Potion of See Invisible. Potion of Dragonsight (Draconomicon). Wand of Glitterdust.

A wand of Glitterdust needs an arcane caster, IIRC. Potions are ok, but their effect can be easily dispelled.

 

[Sejs]

So wait... the argument is that a powerful wizard who expends a significant portion of his personal resources can be well defended for a period of time?

This is a problem?

Besides, a few well placed dispels and the wizard's fun comes crashing down all the same.

 

[isoChron]

With a sack of flour and a strong arm. Or a pump-sprayer and a lot of paint. Seriously - the creature is invisible, not things you coat them with.

Blur and Improved Invisibility won't stack. They both provide a Concealment-based miss chance, and there's no way you can be more than totally concealed. The Blur spell is a waste.

Mind Blank doesn't protect against blindsight, blindsense, or tremorsense. Nor does invisibility fully protect against such things, either. An archer with Blindsight and Improved Precise Shot laughs at invisible foes that don't get FAR away from them.

For a wizard, in 3.5 rules, what you've descried is a LOT of spells to cast:

• Mind Blank - 8th level spell
• Energy Immunity (Fire) - 7th level spell
• Energy Immunity (Cold) - 7th level spell
• Energy Immunity (Acid) - 7th level spell
• Energy Immunity (Sonic) - 7th level spell
• Energy Immunity (Electric) - 7th level spell
• Improved Invisibility - 4th level spell, only lasts 1 round per caster level
• Fly - 3d level spell

That's one eigth, one fourth, one third, and five seventh-level spells ... a not-inconsiderable investment.

One second-level spell later, and the Invisibility is no longer effective against any of yoru foes (your choice of three PHB spells, in fact: Invisibility Purge, See Invisible, or Glitterdust). And even without magic - someone with a (very) good Spot and/or Listen can possibly still pinpoint you - especially if you cast anything with a (V)erbal component.

Meanwhile, once you're targettable, there are plenty of non-PHB evocations and other direct-damage spells which don't use Elemental damage. The Sky Is Falling (Sor/Wiz 3, IIRC), from the Fey Feature on WOTC's website, for example - a decent bucketful of damage, in the form of rocks falling from above. Completely nonelemental. Or Force Orb (Sor/Wiz 4) from Unapproachable East, for fireball-scale damage, but instead of being elemental damage ... it has the [force] descriptor.

Then there're necromantic, non-death-effects. Horrid Wilting, of course ... but also (from Savage Species) Dehydration ... a second-level single-target spell, with the same "sucks the moisture from yoru body" basis for it's damage.

And there's always the old standby ... disintegrate.

All of that, without ever once tossing out a dispel-like effect.


Potion of See Invisible. Potion of Dragonsight (Draconomicon). Wand of Glitterdust.

First of all we don't have/use Savage Species or the region specific books. Nor any online or dragon magazine stuff.

No dehydration, no force orb, no the sky is falling.


You say you can cancel invisibility-effects with a sack of flour, but where do you throw it (and how far/high) ??? Spot DC's are so extremly high (not mentioned the range increment of such checks...) that there is a very small chance anyone but the rogue will see it.
And blur is just for the case you are made visible. No sneak attack because of concealment. But you can eliminate blur. It's not important.

Potions of See Invisibility don't exist. Range PERSONAL spells are not allowed as potions.
We don't use the draconomicon, so no potion of dragonsight (whatever it does).
Who can use a wand of Glitterdust except perhaps the rogue ? Remember, no magic users.
Blindsight has a range of 30 ft... not that difficult to stay higher than 30 ft.


The point is that you have to be targetable for many damage spells. You can just pinpoint a location with spot checks/listen checks. That's enough to get the right square (if you are extremly good) but you still don't have a target ! No Horrid Wilting, no magic missile, .... beyond that: we still don't want a magic user in the opposite party.


Scent takes a lot of time to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature and you have to be next to it (5ft). Not very easy for a wolf to keep up with a wizard flying 50 ft. above ground. He won't even smell the wizard, since he is more than 30ft apart.


So it boils down to have glitterdust (10ft radius spread at medium range) or see invisibility/invisibility purge (max 100ft at 20th level) available.


I have seen what a single wizard level 11 can do to a party of 7 (!) characters level 15 (clr, wiz, wiz/rog, rog, pal/ftr/rgr, rog/asn, drd) in open range. We all died before we got a real chance to act. Not even our horses survived. And all that was done with PHB spells. Luckily our DM declared this event as a very vivid vision/daydream and we continued adventuring...

 

[Dark Dragon]

So wait... the argument is that a powerful wizard who expends a significant portion of his personal resources can be well defended for a period of time?

This is a problem?

At least for Mind Blank and some other 24 hour spells the period of time is a problem, IMO.

Besides, a few well placed dispels and the wizard's fun comes crashing down all the same.

Two rings of counterspells, mirror images and spell turning will need a few more well placed dispels. That is my experience for a "normal" level 18 wizard. Now take an archmage specialized in counterspelling...

 

[andargor]

Two rings of counterspells, mirror images and spell turning will need a few more well placed dispels. That is my experience for a "normal" level 18 wizard. Now take an archmage specialized in counterspelling...

That's why I like AoE spells best.

Permanent Arcane Sight with Archmage Mastery of Shaping will remove any fear of spell turning or invisible foes...

Andargor

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

How is everyone so sure that a sack of flour will defeat Invisibility? The spell also affects items worn or carried in addition to the creature, so technically flour poured over a character should probably either be considered one or the other. Of course, it might be easier to discern his or her location by looking for the footprints in the flour, so in that respect it might drastically reduce the Spot DC for determining the creature's general location. Otherwise, I just can't come to terms with the assumption that this method would be effective.

 

[Bauglir]

Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature.

So if you're covered in flour, the flour would remain visible unless you somehow could tuck it into your clothing.

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

So if you're covered in flour, the flour would remain visible unless you somehow could tuck it into your clothing.

Ok, thanks. That's exactly the loophole I sought, although I feel it would be reasonable to consider a coating of flour to be an item worn as opposed to one carried, thereby rendering it invisible. I still find this strategy very open to interpretation of the rules, and not quite as much of a given as it is often presented.

 

[dcollins]

How is everyone so sure that a sack of flour will defeat Invisibility?

More to the point, DMG under "Invisibility" (the example to the prior quote that got snipped from the SRD):

One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away).