Overpowered/Underpowered Spells?

[Majere]

Mmm 3.0 !!
And why wasn there a 22.5 hour bears endurance up on everyone who didnt alreay have a con item, ?
The mages can also vampiric touch the fighers for more extra hp lasting an hour/day and then the clerics cure the fighters for more twinkage.

To be ohnest it sounds like the party got caught with their pants down and thus full deserved to be smacked about like a bunch of prissy girls. Will teach them to not wonder about like they are immune to the rest of the campeign.
EVEN MORE under 3.0 when your buffs literally lasted all day, so there was no excuse not to cast them all off the bat after waking up. Hell they will be up most of the time you are sleeping too.

Also contigency has a million and one uses, but under 3.0, "cast shield whenever I am attacked" is something I liked personally (+7ac immune to MM nice, cast free action when ever Im held paralized or grappled is also very nice for a mage, but comes up less common). But that will vary too much to be a critical comment, more of a suggestion.

Basically the party was asleep and got whacked, no different from going to sleep with no guards and being told an assassin CDG the whole party while they slept.

Majere

 

[Scion]

In that entire example, the only problem spell I saw was improved invisibility. Everything else was fine. Invis is very difficult to get around without a lot of planning, and every party should plan for it as heavily as possible starting from around level 3.

Edit: perhaps it would be helpful to note that I changed improved invis to be like the old psionic version. You get one freebie attack, but anymore will cause the invis to fail. Getting one attack and still being invisible certainly seems like it is worth the higher slot! It also helps keep it from being overpowered.

 

[Nail]

Nice analysis, asupman. I hadn't realized it was 3.0. Thank g_d that's no longer an issue.

But be honest, everyone: when you're not used to high level "ambush" tactics, it's easy to make mistakes. It sounds to me like the DM was trying to "teach the players a lesson". Even as I'm playing (3.5e, BTW), I might forget to prepare for the "invisible attacker" contingency. Invisibility Purge or See Invisibility should be S.O.P. for clerics over level 5.

...and really: why, by all that's holy, did the paladin just sit there and string his bow? Hello?

I think it might be interesting to start a new thread: "Standard Mid-Level Operating Procedure". That is: what do you think is a "given" for a 10th to 14th lvl party to "have up" and "do right away" as they travel about and get ambushed?

 

[Pax]

As isochron mentioned, I was the DM that created the encounter (under 3.0 rules at that time). I don't have the stats of the mage at hand (I'm at a conference til end of the week), but the wizard attacked the traveling group at daytime in Amn. He had Fly, Impr. Invis. (silent), Shield, Haste (silent), Protection from Fire, Mirror Image and Stoneskin cast prior to combat. I rolled a good initiative and gave him a surprise round. He brought one of the party wizards to negative hp during the surprise with three magic missile versions: one quickened, one empowered during haste and one maximized.

That was one sorry wizard, then, in terms of hp; I've got to agree with Thanee, 66hp at 15th level seems a bit slim. Even with just a singly-Empowered Endurance for his waking hours, that's +3-6 Constitution, an average of +4.5, for +30hp right there. Given an average of 2.5hp after 1st level, no innate constitution modifier (which would be silly, but we'll assume it anyway) ... that comes to 69hp.

Given a smarter wizard build (one with a CON modifier of +1 or +2 - the wizard NEEDS those bonus HP more than the fighters do!), a 15th level Wizard should be in the low 80's for hitpoints, on average.

And just to supprot the above: I had a Necromancer/Loremaster, 15th level in fact, under 3.0 rules. Constitution was his second-best attribute, at 16. Endurance, singly-empowered, was on my spell list every day, and was cast first thing. His hitpoints were a bit BELOW average (only 36 from hit dice), but I could generally count on +75 from constitution, for over 100hp each day.

In round 2, the dying wizard got a good initiative, but he couldn't do anything. Then the enemy wizard got his turn. He slaughtered the other party wizard with the same combo: Three magic missiles in a round + movement afterwards.

Since "the other wizard" was a Rogue/Wizard multiclass, he should have had MORE hitpoints (rogues average +1hp per level, compared to wizards).

The cleric made a good guess and fortunately flame striked the opponent.

Grievous tactical error - made that MORNING, in fact. Whatever was the player THINKING, not to have at least ONE Invisibility Purge prepared for the day ...?!?

I don't recall what the druid did (perhaps she tried to get to the other party wizard).

Targetted spells raining down - the smart thing would have been an obscuring mist to conceal the party from the enemy's sight, and buy some breathing room. Inexcusable tactical error, there!

One rogue tried to escape, the other tried to help also one of the wizards. The fighter dismounted and tried to ready his bow.

At 15th level, if someone drops - leave 'em, and try to take out the THREAT, before it drops YOU. The party cleric, if he lives (and he should, he's got two good saves and plenty of hitpoints), can bring his 'mates back to life the next morning, at the worst.

Round 3: The cleric and the druid (and the fighter's horse I think) were hit by two empowered fireballs (IIRC) leaving the druid almost dead (she failed both saves...).
The ftr/rgr/pal was not able to hit the enemy, one rogue was fleeing, the other was killed by disintegration after she tried to fire on the invisible but casting wizard. The cleric cast Invisibility Purge but the enemy stayed out of range.

Facing a spellcaster, and they didn't spread out ... ?

Perhaps we should keep on topic. BTW, the fight described above showed how overpowered Haste was in 3.0

Yes, that was the primary problem with that encounter - the wizard was able to double- and triple-cast. The REST of the problem, though, was extremely poor forethought, and a lackadaisical attitude, on the part of hte PC's and their players.

The cleric should have cast invisibility purge, first thing. The Druid, meanwhile, should have cast obscuring mist (or the like), to conceal the party from the enemy. Throw in some healing spells, especially of hte Mass variety, and then go after that silly, foolish wizard(11) who just comitted "suicide by PC".

Apsuman's analysys is also ... interesting. It leaves me, still, with some serious doubts as to the veracity of accounts regarding that encounter, sorry.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Don't forget that invisibility purge is only 5ft radius per level; a 15th level cleric would only reveal him within 75ft and his ambush is probably from further away than that.

One wonders how the cleric targetted him with the flamestrike - if he could have seen him I would have thought a destruction would have been considerably more appropriate.

Better yet would have been to use Word of Recall to bug out with your mates (up to 5 willing targets, the dead guys probably count as willing), then use divination to find out who it was and what they were up to, then show the wizard the error of his ways with the 15th level buff/greater scry/teleport without error treatment.

 

[James McMurray]

Its easy to play armchair quarterback and say all the things that should have been done differently, but isn't this thread about over and underpowered spells?

 

[Pax]

Its easy to play armchair quarterback and say all the things that should have been done differently, but isn't this thread about over and underpowered spells?

Yes, and the claim was made that buff spells - period - were overpowered ... based on flying.invisible wizard(11) supposedly pulling off a TPK against seven 15th-level PC's.

Which has been proven NOT to be due to anything but the now-fixed Haste, and the singly most substandard assortment of 15th level characters.

 

[notjer]

Prestidigitation
Why? if you take a gold piece, make it to a ring - in some way let a wizard get the ring... when the time stop the Ring will be a gold piece again, and cut off the finger on the wizard - the wizard can't cast spell

 

[Plane Sailing]

Prestidigitation
Why? if you take a gold piece, make it to a ring - in some way let a wizard get the ring... when the time stop the Ring will be a gold piece again, and cut off the finger on the wizard - the wizard can't cast spell

What makes you think this would work? Of course it wouldn't

 

[Plane Sailing]

This thread is so long I can't remember whether it has been covered yet or not:

Entangle
As a 1st level spell this has a vast area (40ft radius) and anyone who fails the save is entangled and can't move out of the area so they can be shot to pieces with missile weapons/magic and they can't get out of the way. The vast area can capture an immense number of people. If they save they move at half speed and can't run, and if they can't get out in one round (i.e. don't have at least 40ft move if it landed right on top of them) they have to save *again* to avoid being entangled to one place.