Overpowered/Underpowered Spells?

[ConcreteBuddha]

I can't believe no one has brought up Spell Resistance. This is the buff of choice for my party at high levels. Granted, the 1min/cl is annoying, but combined with a bead of karma, this spell gives the whole party SR 16+cl. That is awesome.

IMX, NPC mages have to be lower level that the PCs or else the EL is too high. This means that most spells bounce off that party.

My 15th level cleric has an SR of 31. A typical 13th level wizard has a 15% chance of beating that, or in other words, I have an 85% chance to ignore his spells.

Even a 15th level wizard with SP and GSP has to roll a 12 or higher. A 55% chance of failure.



And IMX, the PCs have the capability of fighting all of their encounters a day within 19 minutes. Obviously, the DM can set up encounters in which this doesn't apply, but that is true of any spell.

 

[dcollins]

These things that you say "actually break the game" could well happen in 1e/2e at high levels, too. The primary difference is that 3e supports & encourages high level play and 1e/2e did not.

No, the "primary" difference is obviously that 3rd Edition is so much softer by taking away all the limits on teleports, polymorphs, hastes, and raise deads -- are those not precisely the spells everyone complains about? To somehow look past that 180-degree flip-flop and blame the problem on just seeing the same thing more often is totally untenable.

 

[isoChron]

Many posts in this thread propose tactics that rely heavily upon having some metamagic rod.

So I ask myself if the spell in question is the problem or the existence of metamagic rods ???

I mean you have more than enough money to buy these rods if your DM allows them, but you only have a limited number of feats to spend. And if you take quickened spell you have to prepare it ahead.
These are two limiting factors that are made obsolete with these rods of metamagic shortcutting.

Just my opinion.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Many posts in this thread propose tactics that rely heavily upon having some metamagic rod.

So I ask myself if the spell in question is the problem or the existence of metamagic rods ???

I mean you have more than enough money to buy these rods if your DM allows them, but you only have a limited number of feats to spend. And if you take quickened spell you have to prepare it ahead.
These are two limiting factors that are made obsolete with these rods of metamagic shortcutting.

Just my opinion.

I think it's only really a problem in high level and epic play. The cost is just too much at lower levels, besides the fact that you have to have both hands free. (One hand holds the rod, the other does somatic components.)

I don't have an opinion for epic levels, but my 15th level cleric just doesn't have enough money for some of the better rods. This is besides the fact that I normally have a shield.

 

[Tyrol]

What do you guys think of Starmantle from Book of Exalted Deeds? I just found it and added it to my level 15 sorcerer's spell list recently (couple weeks ago), and it seems awesome.

I don't have the official spell description, as my DM owns the BoED, but here's a copy and paste (slightly editted) of the description from Crystal Keep:

Starmantle(BoED p108)
Sorc/Wiz Level 6
Abj, VSM(20gp pixie dust), 1StdAct, Touch, 1min/lvl(D)
– The touched living creature is surrounded by
a cascade of tiny stars that fall from the
subject’s shoulders to the ground. This effect
gives off light as a torch & has the following effects:
a) Non-magical weapons (including
projectiles) are destroyed (turned into light) & cause no dmg;
b) Magical weapons & projectiles do half
damage if the subject can make a Reflex
save vs. DC 15.

Does that seem awesome, or what? A DC 15 reflex save at our level is nearly a sure thing.

There is no saving throw when it is cast, so it will even work on my party's Forsaker who usually makes his save on every beneficial spell I cast on him (his 19 SR is easily overcome with greater spell penetration).

Now I'm wondering how it would work in conjunction with DR (Do they stack? if so, do you apply DR or halved damage first?).

 

[Westwind]

Although I'm not really clear on the idea of other party members casting buff spells on Forsakers, my initial thought would be that the benefit of starmantle would indeed stack with Damage Reduction. DR is a specific game mechanic that reduces damage by a set amount whereas starmantle reduces damage by a percentage.

 

[Majere]

Me.

An extend spell rod is only 3000 gp. Much cheaper than a +4 item.

Yay
For 3000gp I can have +4 for 8 minutes a day instead of 4
Or for 4000gp I can have +2 ALL THE TIME and I dont need to waste a round of combat to cast a spell.

AND Im have an extra spell per day by not taking the buff
That is equivalent to saving 4000gp (pearl of power)

So you can get a +2 item (4000gp) , which cant be dispelled (can be supressed) and lasts all day, takes up no spell slot and takes no time to cast in combat.
OR
You can use an extend Rod (3000gp) AND a second level spell slot (4000gp) for a +4 that is dispellable, lasts 8 minutes a day, and takes a round to tcast in combat.

Hmm I WONDER which of these is the better option.

Majere

 

[Majere]

In the main campaign I run, magic is slightly more rare than usual. The party is 9th level, but no one has a single stat buff item that grants more than +2 to any stat, and there's maybe only 1 or 2 such items in the entire party of 6 characters. They do have a fair mix of magic weapons and armor, just not stat buff items. For them, these spells are still good.

This is a non standard campeign.
If you follow the DMG guidlines most people will have +2 to their main stat by about 3rd or 4th level and at least +4, if not +6 by 9th-11th.

Obviously the power of spells goes up as the ability to get magic items goes down, but the same argument makes magic weapon and a whole list of spells more powerful than normal.

Majere

 

[Plane Sailing]

Even a 15th level wizard with SP and GSP has to roll a 12 or higher. A 55% chance of failure.

The biggest part of the problem is the bead of Karma - if something like that is available for both parties that problem goes away.

For the poor wizards who don't have that option - at least he has a range of conjuration spells which can now be used that ignore spell resistance - he isn't as badly off as before (and presumably every wizard who might be facing a cleric who can have spell resistance is likely to have plans for that eventuality? The obvious bet would be acid fog + forcecage, since most clerics won't have a good answer to that apart from dispelling the acid fog.

Mind you - I notice that people are throwing around forcecages with gay abandon in this thread, but perhaps glossing over the cost of 1500gp per spell(!) This isn't an insignificant cost at all except the very highest levels of play.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Time Stop does stack... There is nothing inherantly against except personal opinion. Besides DBF is for chumps a mxaimized cloudkill inside a forcecage with a dimensional lock and a projected image silenced

I'm not sure - what is the point of the spell I've emphasised here? it can't be inside the forcecage while your outside it unless you have the barred version, in which case the cloudkill leaks away.