Overpowered/Underpowered Spells?

[apsuman]

1) Project image is used to resolve diffusion issues
a) also as an illusion it can receive the illusion known as silence via scroll and cast it on itself

Ok, I, too, might have my stoopid hat on today but I still don't get why projected image is a needed spell in your deadly combo.

Perhaps if you were to explain exactly your chartacter's actions (and the timing of such) for your timestop cloudkill forcecage projected image thingy.

Cause I still don't see how projected image helps.

 

[Pax]

<Loads Wand of Fireball>
In case any of you are thinking of replying, I have 44 charges left and Energy Immunity Fire.

That's okay, I have a level of Archmage, and Mastery of Elements. ^_^ Oh, and as a half-Dragon of Gold heritage, fire doesn't worry me at all. ^_^

 

[danielinthewolvesden]

It gets worse- every Pally I know has a heavy warhorse as a Mount- or better. The Druid certainly could of shapeshifted to something flying and at the very least be out of the area for any area effect spells. Not to mention casting spells once he got up there.

7 (!) characters level 15 (clr, wiz, wiz/rog, rog, pal/ftr/rgr, rog/asn, drd) in


There were three PC's possibly with Evasion and one (the pure rogue) with almost certainly Improved Evasion. Even after two Maximized fireballs, he (at the very least ) shouldn't even be down a single HP. The Pally should have been able to take two MAXed fireballs and still be alive.

With 4 spellcasters it boggles the mind that NO "anti-invisible" spells (glitterdust, see invis, invis purge, true sight, etc etc etc) weren't at least on someones spell list fot that day. And- that fact that no one had any item or spell of fire resistance?? :\

But still- having them all bunched together after the first fireball was silly. And, two MAXIMIZED fireballs still shouldn't have been able to kill all of the party- even if everyone rolled two consectutive ones. The cleric, druid, Pally, and the Mount all certainly could easily have more than 120 hit points (and PLEASE don't tell me everyone failed BOTH saving throws!!!!).

The contingency spell would at least have the wizard well out of the spread of fireball two, now wouldn't it?

And- three PC's with healing, one of who could have cast Cure Critical Wounds, Mass- Spontaneously, which would have healed everyone in the party of 43 points or so of damage. I dunno about YOUR party, but even after taking 60 points- every 15th level PC I have played with would have been alive. It is statistically impossible that everyone failed their save (and thus 3 would have been unscathed)- and then- after a spell that every 15th level (non-evil) cleric has available- those who HAD failed would have been down only 17 points. I don't care what kind of bear your party was loaded for- your cleric had access to high level mass healing spells. He HAS to. It's the rules.

Ok, let's be frank here- pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

 

[Khristos]

Okay which way does a cloudkill travel? answer away from caster. Does a cloudkill sink or rise? answer sink to lowest point. what happens when something the other direction uses or has an effect that simulates gust of wind on it? Answer it moves the cloud back to the edge of the gust of wind. What can you do with a project image? Use it as a focal point to cast a spell originating in a point other than itself. What spell can a projected image cast on itself? Answer illusion magics. Hmmm what advantage is one able to effect with different variations of forcecage? answer either have a line of effect or not into it. What does a maximized cloudkill do when its area effect is stationary? 4 pts of Con Damage save for half if you make a fortitude save.

Advantage?? the ability to use countermagic while the cloud does its dirty work 36-72 Con damage .. probably too busy thinking I am stupid or a noob instead of thinking how the directional aspect of casting can be used to great effect. Before you say "do you have 18 gust of winds?" ... no but I did spend 1500 xps to have it on an object

Yes I know I made reference to one option of the forcecage but I also said read the spells and think about how they can be used ( the solid also works in a different and more dangerous way)

 

[Pax]

Hey, Khristos - I'm rather well-known (or is that ill-reputed) for being a tactlerss and oft insulting b*st*rd, and even I have GOT to say ... chill. I've heard of (and suffered from) lack of tact before, but ... you've gone negative on the tact scale, guy.

Now, the problem with using the barred cage and the gust of wind is this: it allows you to be attacked by the person in the 'cage, while you do that. And there are several ways to counter the effects of cloudkill. One would be a Necklace ofAdaptation - not because it eliminates the need to breathe, but because it "creates a zone of fresh air all around the wearer" - meaning, a *small* space around yoru intended victimis kept clear of the cloudkill itself.

Another would be simply shapeshifting or polymorphing into something that isn't "living" (undead or construct).

Alternately, just cast gaseous form and slip right out of the 'cage. It's slow, but it'd work. Gaseous Form and shapeshifting would be ideal, of course.

Barring gaseous form, shapechange into an Ooze, and just ... well ... ooze out of the 'cage.

And so on.

Before you say "do you have 18 gust of winds?" ... no but I did spend 1500 xps to have it on an object

Your Projected Image cannot have or carry magic items, so that won't work.

 

[Pax]

7 (!) characters level 15 (clr, wiz, wiz/rog, rog, pal/ftr/rgr, rog/asn, drd)

So, let's see. We'll assume front-loaded Ranger(2) at most, Fighter(4) for weapon spec, that's still Paladin(11). 2 less HD, so 2d8+6 less hitpoints - TWO maximised fireballs against a Light Warhorse paladin's mount might kill it, if it failed both saves. Odds are it's HURT, yes, but definitely not dead.

15th level cleric, and an invisible spellcasting enemy - sounds like a good time for an Antimagic Field spell to ME. Pop a Widen on it, and crowd everyone together inside ...

15th level Wizard; if he's lacking a Permanent true seeing, he's truly earned the world of hurt coming his way. Just because of how well True Seeing preserves his abilities to target enemies when he IS in combat, it's worth the XP - or the GP for a magic item of one sort or another. With that, and a glitterdust, eh can "light up" the enemy spellcaster but GOOD.

Wiz/Rogue, I don't know what the level split was, but however the levels are put together, there're several options that each combination could take. Regardless, at least has Evasion, MIGHT even have improved evasion.

Pure rogue ... improved evasion. 'nuff said.

Rogue/Assassin ... ditto.

Druid, wildshape to something that flies, head towards the general direction the spellcasting noise came from. Should have the Blindsight feat, if he's worth the name "druid".

So, even accounting for the multiclassing ... I fail to see how a single, unsupported wizard four leels below your party's level could possibly have been defeated, unless (a) your PCs were poorly built and/or played, (b) the dice were so strongly against you that a mob of blind kobold children (SANS buckets of snails) could have whupped yer backsides with one arm (and both legs) tied behind their backs ... or (c) the GM outright cheated.

I prefer (d), "this scenario never actually occurred". Unfortunately for your credibility, others seem to agree with that assessment.

 

[Khristos]

Hey, Khristos - I'm rather well-known (or is that ill-reputed) for being a tactlerss and oft insulting b*st*rd, and even I have GOT to say ... chill. I've heard of (and suffered from) lack of tact before, but ... you've gone negative on the tact scale, guy.

Now, the problem with using the barred cage and the gust of wind is this: it allows you to be attacked by the person in the 'cage, while you do that. And there are several ways to counter the effects of cloudkill. One would be a Necklace ofAdaptation - not because it eliminates the need to breathe, but because it "creates a zone of fresh air all around the wearer" - meaning, a *small* space around yoru intended victimis kept clear of the cloudkill itself.

Another would be simply shapeshifting or polymorphing into something that isn't "living" (undead or construct).

Alternately, just cast gaseous form and slip right out of the 'cage. It's slow, but it'd work. Gaseous Form and shapeshifting would be ideal, of course.

Barring gaseous form, shapechange into an Ooze, and just ... well ... ooze out of the 'cage.

And so on.


Your Projected Image cannot have or carry magic items, so that won't work.

First- I was responding to the sarcastic remarks of other posters (if they wish to be insulting I can be easily be condescending in return)

Second- the necklace of adaption is nice but not fully proof against the full arsenal brought to bear ( ie it can be negated)

Third- The character is trying to cast while subjected to silence and vulnerable to counterspells.

Fourth- The prjected image doesnt need to carry magic items as I cast the spell from it heading back towards myself ( Directional properties of a projected image) actually my character isnt actively using the object in question either ( as this effect can be obtained without me holding the item)

really I can go on and on but by using the logic that anything COULD be countered then frankly there are no underpowered or overpowered spells in the game and this entire thread is pointless. The combination listed bypasses SR and allows the character to take other actions (even if it is just counterspelling and using quickened spells) bypasses HPs ( it attacks an attribute) and unless the victim has immunity to poison it will result in death ( neutrilize poison can be can be countered with a 4th or 5th lvl conjuration spell and improved counterspell and is using an equal slot for the victim as it needed to be silent metamagic enhanced)

 

[Khristos]

An 11th lvl wizard could kill 7 lvl 15 players with 2 consecutive rds of actions and some biblical die rolling Fireball 880' range True Sight 120' So start bombing at 140' and you wont be seen by true sight . Inivisibility Purge is 5 ft a lvl. See invisibility is field of vision however a camoflauged mage ( sky camo) could be hard to make out. Of course an industrious mage would have summoned monsters and carpet bombed

" Nigel there seems to be a riding dog buried in my horse's skull"

 

[isoChron]

So, let's see. We'll assume front-loaded Ranger(2) at most, Fighter(4) for weapon spec, that's still Paladin(11). 2 less HD, so 2d8+6 less hitpoints - TWO maximised fireballs against a Light Warhorse paladin's mount might kill it, if it failed both saves. Odds are it's HURT, yes, but definitely not dead.

15th level cleric, and an invisible spellcasting enemy - sounds like a good time for an Antimagic Field spell to ME. Pop a Widen on it, and crowd everyone together inside ...

15th level Wizard; if he's lacking a Permanent true seeing, he's truly earned the world of hurt coming his way. Just because of how well True Seeing preserves his abilities to target enemies when he IS in combat, it's worth the XP - or the GP for a magic item of one sort or another. With that, and a glitterdust, eh can "light up" the enemy spellcaster but GOOD.

Wiz/Rogue, I don't know what the level split was, but however the levels are put together, there're several options that each combination could take. Regardless, at least has Evasion, MIGHT even have improved evasion.

Pure rogue ... improved evasion. 'nuff said.

Rogue/Assassin ... ditto.

Druid, wildshape to something that flies, head towards the general direction the spellcasting noise came from. Should have the Blindsight feat, if he's worth the name "druid".

So, even accounting for the multiclassing ... I fail to see how a single, unsupported wizard four leels below your party's level could possibly have been defeated, unless (a) your PCs were poorly built and/or played, (b) the dice were so strongly against you that a mob of blind kobold children (SANS buckets of snails) could have whupped yer backsides with one arm (and both legs) tied behind their backs ... or (c) the GM outright cheated.

I prefer (d), "this scenario never actually occurred". Unfortunately for your credibility, others seem to agree with that assessment.

Nice try to push my Pali to high level but he was Fighter 10 then Ranger and Paladin (Torm) 'till 15th. Actually Ftr10/Rgr2/Pal3. And no he didn't have a mount. I never mentioned a "Paladins Mount". I was talking about a group traveling through the north of Tethyr after some heavy fighting with a troll/ork army at Eshpurta. All we had were light and heavy warhorses. In our campaign you don't get holy avengers and special mounts on the fly over night. In 3.0 it wasn't that useful to have a paladins mount if you teleport a lot.

I don't know your style of play but please don't call someone a liar you don't know. Your arguments are based on assumptions made from YOUR gaming experience not ours.
And please don't asume your choices are the best another group could have made in another complete different campaign/situation.
As mentioned we didn't have permanency in our group. Are these wizards now a dump pack because they didn't have this one spell. They chosed other spells that fitted their situation more.

And I never said we were on enemy territory. That's one thing you said, not me. We were travelling on the road in Amn because in Amn it's not allowed to use teleportation spells and we had some places to visit along the way to Athkatla.

And no, I didn't make this encounter up in my mind. Ask the DM that made this encounter up. He is the thread starter ...

And another point is that you still can't get True Seeing permanent on yourself, even if the fighter has spend his 2 skillpoints per level in UMD instead of ride, jump, climb, knowledge or whatever other nice skills are out there. (This would make +7.5 ranks in UMD vs. 3 checks to use a scroll with UMD.
1. Decipher Script 25+spell level=DC30.
2. Emulate Spell ability DC 20 gives your caster level as result-20 ... must be 9 or better to cast from a scroll without problems
3. Emulate Ability Score (WIS 15) gives you a virtual score of result-15. You need 30 to get there ...
not that easy, or ?)
And True Seeing is NOT on the list of possible spells given in the PHB list. Even not in T&B.

If your DM houseruled that, nice for you. But that's not covered by the rules.

I'm a little bit dissapointed about your way to draw conclusions on a basis of little information. That's ok for you but to call someone a liar is a totally different thing.

 

[Merlion]

I hate to butt in but I do think it would be nice if this thread could return to people listing and discussing over or underpowered spells rather than people arguing over specfic tactics and combinations, or simply fighting amongst themselves.