Overpowered/Underpowered Spells?

[Dark Dragon]

That was one sorry wizard, then, in terms of hp; I've got to agree with Thanee, 66hp at 15th level seems a bit slim. Even with just a singly-Empowered Endurance for his waking hours, that's +3-6 Constitution, an average of +4.5, for +30hp right there. Given an average of 2.5hp after 1st level, no innate constitution modifier (which would be silly, but we'll assume it anyway) ... that comes to 69hp.

Everything I've posted so far (and will post now) about that encounter was off my mind. I can give you details about that hostile wizard at the end of the week when I'm back at home.
Some details about the PCs I just remembered. They're, except for the druid (and the ftr/pal/rgr?), converted AD&D characters. The cleric was a ftr1/clr14 of Tempus with high Str, Dex and Wis, but only Con 10 and Cha 10(?). Don't ask me why he took a quite low Con. The druid had a high Dex, Wis and Cha and also a Con of 10. The player had chosen these stats for pure flavour reasons and she shouldn't be critizised for that IMHO. The first wizard was a drd1/wiz14, high Dex, Int, Wis and Cha (remember, these PCs came from AD&D!), Con 10. The second wizard was a rog4(?)/wiz10, high Int, Dex, Wis but don't know the Con stat now. The first "pure" rogue (a halfling) had a high Dex, Con, and Cha (for flavour reasons), this rogue was disintegrated during the encounter, IIRC. The second rogue (my PC) was an elven rog12/asn3 with the highest Con in the group and high Str and Dex (he was a former galley slave, so he got high physical stats). He was of NE alignment, but the paladin of the group never used Detect Evil on my PC... When he saw that the group was attacked, he tried to get away because he was expecting area spells and he wouldn't risk his life for the group (except for the halfling, they were good friends). The stats of the ftr/pal/rgr I don't recall

Given a smarter wizard build (one with a CON modifier of +1 or +2 - the wizard NEEDS those bonus HP more than the fighters do!), a 15th level Wizard should be in the low 80's for hitpoints, on average.

See above.

And just to supprot the above: I had a Necromancer/Loremaster, 15th level in fact, under 3.0 rules. Constitution was his second-best attribute, at 16. Endurance, singly-empowered, was on my spell list every day, and was cast first thing. His hitpoints were a bit BELOW average (only 36 from hit dice), but I could generally count on +75 from constitution, for over 100hp each day.

Yep, the wizards in another group have a base Con of 16. But if you play a PC with a "flavour" background, you're not always looking on a high Con.

Since "the other wizard" was a Rogue/Wizard multiclass, he should have had MORE hitpoints (rogues average +1hp per level, compared to wizards).

That's right. But you can roll bad for the rogue and good for a wizard. Anyway, I'm quite sure he hadn't high HP.

Targetted spells raining down - the smart thing would have been an obscuring mist to conceal the party from the enemy's sight, and buy some breathing room. Inexcusable tactical error, there!

Bad idea, IMHO. Just cast a fireball or two into the fog. And the party members would have a hampered vision: Just try to find an unconcious character lying on the ground in a thick fog...

At 15th level, if someone drops - leave 'em, and try to take out the THREAT, before it drops YOU. The party cleric, if he lives (and he should, he's got two good saves and plenty of hitpoints), can bring his 'mates back to life the next morning, at the worst.

Yes he could, but those would be grateful to lose a level.
The party had some problems to deal with a flying invisible wizard without some proper FLAK cannon (in this case, the party wizards).

Facing a spellcaster, and they didn't spread out ... ?

Some of them didn't and those were targeted.

Yes, that was the primary problem with that encounter - the wizard was able to double- and triple-cast. The REST of the problem, though, was extremely poor forethought, and a lackadaisical attitude, on the part of hte PC's and their players.

The cleric had Endurance on the whole day, plus Magic Weapon, plus Magic Vestment (he cast them twice per day), plus Energy Immunity (don't recall which version, he changed it often), plus some other long lasting spells. In the end, the cleric was buffed to the end, but low on attack and healing spells...

The cleric should have cast invisibility purge, first thing. The Druid, meanwhile, should have cast obscuring mist (or the like), to conceal the party from the enemy. Throw in some healing spells, especially of hte Mass variety, and then go after that silly, foolish wizard(11) who just comitted "suicide by PC".

No mass cure x wounds in 3.0, the only option was healing circle. And I'm not sure if the cleric had prepared it.

Apsuman's analysys is also ... interesting. It leaves me, still, with some serious doubts as to the veracity of accounts regarding that encounter, sorry.

Come on, I had to recall a fight that I DMed about two years ago! The wizard was "designed" after 3.0 core rules and his spell list was ok, I'm sure about that. I'm not sure about his equipment by now, the two empowered fireballs (just have a look at my previous post, thanks apsuman for checking ) and his stats.

Back to topic: Protection from Evil is ok, IMHO. The protected creature is warded only against evil creatures, IIRC (or has it been changed?). If a slaad is summoned, PfE won't help you that much. You'll need Pf Chaos in this case.

 

[Majere]

Well then the problem is not that buff pells were broken (although there was still no reason not for all those con 10 people to have a day long bears andurance).
It was that ADD didnt translate to D&D characters. I have a 9th level ADD character with 18hp who died to the first fireball of the game .. even after he made his save

Flavour is all very well and good, but quite simply you have to have at least 12 or 14 con in 3E or your characters wont live part 6-9th level.
Its how the game is written.

Majere

 

[apsuman]

Come on, I had to recall a fight that I DMed about two years ago! The wizard was "designed" after 3.0 core rules and his spell list was ok, I'm sure about that. I'm not sure about his equipment by now, the two empowered fireballs (just have a look at my previous post, thanks apsuman for checking ) and his stats.

I'm not trying to hold your feet to the fire on this one encounter. I think the primary reasons for the characters' demises have been fully explained by now. Low CON, the broken 3.0 haster, character laziness in not casting available (in 3.0) spells for protection, AD&D converted characters, poor tactics, and a wizard willing to cast every spell he knew for the day (plus two 5th level spells he did not have ) all seem to create a "perfect storm" for the ambush.

I am, however, curious as to how the 11th level wizard cast that many spells, like I said in my earlier post, it looks like he was two 5th level spell slots short.

 

[Nail]

Back On Topic!

Everything I've posted so far (and will post now) about that encounter was off my mind. I can give you details about that hostile wizard at the end of the week when I'm back at home.

In fact: enough is enough, guys. Let's let this dead horse pass away to the Great Threads Beyond.

Back to topic: Protection from Evil is ok, IMHO. The protected creature is warded only against evil creatures, IIRC (or has it been changed?). If a slaad is summoned, PfE won't help you that much. You'll need Pf Chaos in this case.

That's incorrect. Prot./ Evil also protects against neutral summoned creatures. It says:

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect.

Besides even if it did only this it would be a useful spell. It does two other significant things, and it's a 1st level spell.

Brrrrrrrrrrrroke!

 

[Dark Dragon]

That's incorrect. Prot./ Evil also protects against neutral summoned creatures. It says:

Originally Posted by SRD_3.5e
Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect.

Besides even if it did only this it would be a useful spell. It does two other significant things, and it's a 1st level spell.

Brrrrrrrrrrrroke!

Ah yes, totally forgot that. Hm, an EVIL cleric will be in trouble since he can't cast PfE. IIRC, Protection from Good does not help against neutral creatures. Unfortunately, I have no access to the SRD to verify this. If there is a difference between PfE and PfG/C/L, only the PfE version needs to be changed by adding "evil": Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures. The last sentence about good creatures should be removed, IMO.

 

[Khristos]

I have made every effort to be polite and inquiring in the face of your arrogant posturing. Just get over yourself.[/QUOTE]

No you made sarcastic remarks and then I became arrogant in response.

Silence is important as it also has the side effect of blocking sonic effects. It should be noted as a rule of thumb my wizard makes extensive use of of planar binding and I have a healthy dislike for the holy word line of magics which are sonic effects. The creatures I use are immune to poison so they are unaffected by the cloudkill as they do the bloody business inside a forcecage. As to gust of wind the effect itself dictates its effects on clouds etc. When used in conjunction of range vs cloudkill movement it can be used as a stopgap to maintain the cloud into place. Which is the point the gust actually serves as. Again it is not dependent on me holding it or coming from a projected image. The projected image changes the directional of the cloudkill spell so in effect it would roll towards the placed object that is gusting wind as the projected image becomes the caster. The only 3 classes that have an easy time defeating this combination are druids hexblades and monks. Also prestige classes that grant mettle are very helpful.

Silence can be used via use magic device and a scroll or imbue spell ability ( used heavily within our group). A typical encounter where the stops need to be pulled out costs me around 17,000 gps worth of components and around 1500 xps. The group is happy to pay the cost since the alternatives could be death

 

[Scion]

Which has been proven NOT to be due to anything but the now-fixed Haste

I will have to disagree wholeheartedly with this assessment. Not trying to single anyone out, because a couple of people said this.

Look back over the encounter, there was only one overpowered spell used, and it was not haste.

The haste part barely even mattered, it allowed for a few more points of damage sure, but there are so many ways under the sun around that sort of thing it isnt even funny.

No, the overpowered spell was improved invis. Going through the encounter step by step how different would the situation have been if improved invis had not been available? Say just invis.

Surprise round: first attack spell = becomes visible.
First real round: Anyone who beat the wizard in initiative (and with a party this size and of this level it should have been easy for half of the party to do so) can either lay the smack down or ready an action to do something similar.

Along with, if there was any cover anywhere what-so-ever then simply saying 'I am going to hide behind that with my buddy over here and we are going to heal up' is perfectly viable as well.

Mostly lack of the power needed to be actualy 15th level characters, lack of valid tactics for this type of encounter, and the broken improved invis spells were the culprits. Take away haste and the same thing happens. Take away improved invis and suddenly it is a whole 'nother ball game.

 

[apsuman]

No you made sarcastic remarks and then I became arrogant in response.

Silence is important as it also has the side effect of blocking sonic effects. It should be noted as a rule of thumb my wizard makes extensive use of of planar binding and I have a healthy dislike for the holy word line of magics which are sonic effects. The creatures I use are immune to poison so they are unaffected by the cloudkill as they do the bloody business inside a forcecage. As to gust of wind the effect itself dictates its effects on clouds etc. When used in conjunction of range vs cloudkill movement it can be used as a stopgap to maintain the cloud into place. Which is the point the gust actually serves as. Again it is not dependent on me holding it or coming from a projected image. The projected image changes the directional of the cloudkill spell so in effect it would roll towards the placed object that is gusting wind as the projected image becomes the caster. The only 3 classes that have an easy time defeating this combination are druids hexblades and monks. Also prestige classes that grant mettle are very helpful.

Ok, not to nitpick here but a couple of things come to mind...

The planar binding idea is good, and newly introduced in this thread iirc.

As for the Gust of wind, it dictates how it would effect "gases and vapors" and it says that the effect is a "line-shaped gust of severe wind emanating out from you to the extreme of the range". I don't know who wide a line of wind it would make, 5ft?, 10 ft?, and I don't know how high that line of wind is but the cloudkill spell makes a cloud with a 20ft radius, 20ft high. I really don't think that a 5 or 10 foot wide gust of wind would keep a cloud 40 feet across and 20 feet high at bay. Either, imho, the gust of wind would the Fog Cloud description says, disperse the cloud, or simply provide an obstacle that the moving cloud, well, moves around to the left or right.

I really don't understand when you say "Again it is not dependent on me holding it or coming from a projected image. The projected image changes the directional of the cloudkill spell so in effect it would roll towards the placed object that is gusting wind as the projected image becomes the caster. "

I thought that the gust of wind only lasts for one round (unless you keep casting it of course -- or make it permanent). But that's not the confusing (to me) part. When you say the projected image changes the directional [sic] of cloudkill I get confused. Are you implying that the caster casts the cloudkill and it moves away from him, and then you change the focus to the shadow caster so that the cloud now moves away from the shadow (and back to the real caster)? Or are you simply saying that the shadow caster allows you cast the spell from afar and have it more easily move toward your target of choice?

 

[Pax]

Look back over the encounter, there was only one overpowered spell used, and it was not haste.

The haste part barely even mattered, it allowed for a few more points of damage sure, but there are so many ways under the sun around that sort of thing it isnt even funny.

No, the overpowered spell was improved invis. Going through the encounter step by step how different would the situation have been if improved invis had not been available? Say just invis.

I strongly disagree. There were plenty of spells available to the PCs that would have completely countered the improved invisibility: See Invisible, True Seeing, and Glitterdust. Either of the first two, followed by the last, would have negated the entire benefit of the Improved Invisibility.

Let's do as you did, and look at that encounter without the haste.

Round one, the first wizard could not have been dropped with mere MM's; one quickened and one empowered, then that's it - no second empowered MM.

Round two, the same for the second PC wizard - either he takes two MMs (one quickened, one empowered), OR, he takes only ONE, as the first wizard is finished off with the empowered MM for this round.

Already we've got one or two PC's still standing, who weren't while Haste was going.

Round three, the double-tap with empowered fireballs wouldn't have happened ... it'd've been just ONE such. Which means the Druid would have still been in on the action.

And at this point, if the one or two wizards hasn't managed to do SOMEthing productive (for example, see invisible in round 2, followed by glitterdust in round three), the failure falls back squarely into the laps of the players.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I strongly disagree. There were plenty of spells available to the PCs that would have completely countered the improved invisibility: See Invisible, True Seeing, and Glitterdust. .

True seeing only has a range of 120ft. If the wizard stays outside that range then see invisibility is the only counter.

(admittedly the wizard used short range spells - magic missiles - in this particular instance, but he could equally have made all his attacks from further than 120ft away)