Oy Vey! Why at-will spell-like abilities might not be such a good thing.

[Proudfoot]

My complaint is that warlock boosts rogues too easily.

Just take 2 levels and you don't have to invest skill points in climb, and you get a big, fat +6 to jump, balance, and tumble. It's like an unconditional prestige class for 2nd level characters.

Even a 1-for-1 rogue/warlock won't lose out on the classes' special attacks, because a sneak attack with eldritch blast will add up to the same damage as either attack would for single-class character.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Even a 1-for-1 rogue/warlock won't lose out on the classes' special attacks, because a sneak attack with eldritch blast will add up to the same damage as either attack would for single-class character.

Except that you can sneak attack multiple times in a round...and even with the Hideous Blow blast shape (Eldritch blast with a melee attack) you can only use EB ONCE per round.

 

[Proudfoot]

But how often do you get to unload with multiple, ranged sneak attacks in a round?

Not often. Missing out on a sneak attack once in a blue moon doesn't come close to balancing the extraordinary benefits that the warlock gives rogues.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Ouch! A one or two level dip in Warlock gets you INSANE things. For example, a two level dip might conceivably yield A) Detect Magic at will, B) Darkvision AND See Invisibility at will, AS WELL AS C) Some other potent ability at will...let's say Spider Climb...which more or less negates the worth of entire skill (Climb). And of course, since the Warlock is a CORE CLASS, there aren't many cumbersome prerequisites to deal with (aside from alignment, and possible thematics).

A one level dip in wizard gives you access to (potentially) 61 spells. And the ability to potentially use a scroll of permanency if that suits you - but I'd get the "scroll of permanency suitable for detect magic and detect invisibility" instead of the full-blown 2000xp version...

Or take sorceror and pick out those spells you want. For something like detect magic, at will is basically equal to "3 times a day".

But how often do you get to unload with multiple, ranged sneak attacks in a round?

Not often. Missing out on a sneak attack once in a blue moon doesn't come close to balancing the extraordinary benefits that the warlock gives rogues.

Since you're saying that the rogue half of this mix is essential, couldn't it also be said that the rogue is breaking the warlock??

 

[Shadowdweller]

A one level dip in wizard gives you access to (potentially) 61 spells.

Usable once or twice per day, without wearing armor (or with ASF chance), for a very limited duration at best, and STILL not approaching the power level of some of the Least Invocations (which can include the equivalent of second+ level spells). Not all the Invocations are even replicable by existing spells. Devil's Sight, for instance, grants Darkvision with unlimited range and the ability to see in magical darkness (not that these things are extremely frequent issues, mind).

And the ability to potentially use a scroll of permanency if that suits you - but I'd get the "scroll of permanency suitable for detect magic and detect invisibility" instead of the full-blown 2000xp version...

Which costs money, is unlikely to succeed with a single level of Wizard (yep, that little scroll failure thing), and is completely ruined by dispel magic.

Or take sorceror and pick out those spells you want. For something like detect magic, at will is basically equal to "3 times a day".

Can only speak for the games I play in. In some cases, yes, this would be true. Detect Magic, however, is one spell that tends to see use considerably more than 3 times/day.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Usable once or twice per day, without wearing armor (or with ASF chance), for a very limited duration at best, and STILL not approaching the power level of some of the Least Invocations (which can include the equivalent of second+ level spells).

But not the more powerful ones, imho.

Which costs money, is unlikely to succeed with a single level of Wizard (yep, that little scroll failure thing), and is completely ruined by dispel magic.

Well, there IS a feat that remedies that - lets you take 10 on caster level checks. Although now we're going for a level of wizard AND a feat...

As for costing money - just sell a heap of everburning torches. Warlocks don't have that option.

Can only speak for the games I play in. In some cases, yes, this would be true. Detect Magic, however, is one spell that tends to see use considerably more than 3 times/day.

It is? Don't your players just gather everything up, chuck it in a pile and then use a single detect to do the whole lot in a single go??

 

[Korik]

My complaint is that warlock boosts rogues too easily.

Just take 2 levels and you don't have to invest skill points in climb, and you get a big, fat +6 to jump, balance, and tumble. It's like an unconditional prestige class for 2nd level characters.

Even a 1-for-1 rogue/warlock won't lose out on the classes' special attacks, because a sneak attack with eldritch blast will add up to the same damage as either attack would for single-class character.

Without any strings attached? I don't think so. How exactly is he going to "dip into" warlock levels, anyway? I mean, it's not like the rogue can just wander on down to Ye Olde Warlock School for a few night classes, right?

On the other hand, if the rogue's really determined to do this and wants to make a sorcerous pact with diabolic (or similar) forces for a few cool abilities, well, ok. He's going to have some fun - for a while. But you know there's going to be a hefty pricetag down the road. How many deals with the Devil end happily ever after? It could make for a fun campaign, though. For the DM, anyway!

Now, I'd have to wonder about any DM who allowed Warlock levels to be skimmed without consequences. That would be abusive, IMO.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Now, I'd have to wonder about any DM who allowed Warlock levels to be skimmed without consequences. That would be abusive, IMO.

Probably because it´s a core (or better "non-prestige") class, and the rules do usually not prevent someone from multiclassing into them?
(And be aware, the posters above mostly talked about mechanical aspects, not about roleplaying aspects. And, truth to be told, you can make next to any class-combination work roleplaying wise...)

 

[Korik]

Probably because it´s a core (or better "non-prestige") class, and the rules do usually not prevent someone from multiclassing into them?
(And be aware, the posters above mostly talked about mechanical aspects, not about roleplaying aspects. And, truth to be told, you can make next to any class-combination work roleplaying wise...)

Oh, I understand and agree. It's just that I've noticed quite a few folks on various message boards worried about the warlock breaking the game with respect to multi-classing, which I think is a valid concern if it goes unchecked. I just wanted to try to give some context to the discussion, that's all.

 

[hobgoblin]

call me the day the warlock shows up in order of the stick...