JackOfAllTirades
Explorer
Has anyone considered giving the Pact Blade Warlock a Fighting Style feature?
D&D 5E Pact of the Blade / Bladelock, looking for thoughts
- Thread starter Mu Zein Wallah
- Start date
Sword of Spirit
Legend
I agree that that might be the way the class was intended, but I'm just not sure. For tome and chain, yes. For blade, it sure seems to me that it is supposed to make melee combat a competitive option (and when you take into account opportunity cost investment required, probably a better option).
This is one case where I'm not sure I actually want to know what the designers were thinking. I have a lot of respect for the quality of their work, but in this case I would not be surprised if they said something to the effect of "pact of the blade can come out on top if they use armor of agathys", which would just disappoint me and demonstrate that they haven't realized their goof. What I'd rather hear would be something like, "pact of the blade is intended to be the best combatant, and we're considering adding some options in the future to make that more evident."
Well, actually that's not exactly want I want to hear--that's just mimicing the types of things Mike or Jeremy are likely to actually say. I'd rather hear, "Yeah...we kind of didn't hit what we were going for on that. We're working on some optional fixes."
The three options are parallel. If one of the them was designed to completely change the class then the other two would have needed to occupy that same scope. As it is people want those options to occupy that bigger scope, but they, in fact, simply do not.
For blade lock that starts 16/16 Cha/Dex and goes Dex/Dex/Cha/Cha on ASI the blade either out damages or stays within 8% of EB/AB from levels 1-16 with single exception of level 11 where, melee damage falls about 20% behind EB/AB. With hex the difference aside from level 11 stretches to ~12%. The numbers are modestly better for two weapon fighting using an off hand dagger. In this case the weapon has a rough parity with EB/AB until the very highest levels, where it does fall behind significantly. I think that makes the blade a nice alternative for when EB is less useful. (Situations where your buddies are providing cover for the bad guys, or too many enemies and you can't stay clean). This ignores the possibility of bonding a magic weapon as a pact weapon.
If you see the option as a versatility add rather than a complete replacement for EB/AB it really just fine. (IMO).
I think if the pact options didn't exist, and all we had was something that looked a lot like a 4e PHB Warlock, people would actually be happy. It's that hint of a hex blade without fulfillment and that hint of a binder without fulfillment that makes people sad. (And honestly who really cared whether or not Warlocks could cast rituals)
Sword of Spirit
Legend
Again, that's quite possible. I'm not convinced that was design intent though. To put it in perspective, I have almost no familiarity with hexblade or binder. I've heard of them, but I don't know if I've ever actually seen the class write-ups. Pact of the Chain looked fine to me (as did Pact of the Tome--I like that "I can learn every ritual" invocation!). But Pact of the Blade looked like it was intended to turn you into a melee warrior, which it doesn't.
Those aren't the same numbers I'm getting with those ability scores and a rapier. I'm getting the bladelock behind Agonizing Blast on every single level from 2-20. Of course, 11th and 17th are the worst, but even when it is less pronounced at levels 3-10, they are still behind each and every level.
Yes, there is that. I'd miss the Pact of the Tome features those.
Jaron Mortimer
First Post
Yes. Invocations are a great way to add things to Warlock without changing the structure of the class
- Pact combat: (pre-req: level 3, Pact of the Blade) You gain a fighting style from one of the following list: Dueling, Two Weapon Fighting, Defensive, Great Weapon Fighting, Mariner. You may select a different fighting style each time you take a long rest, gaining the benefits of the new one and losing the benefits of the old one. You may only take this Invocation once.
- Armor of Shadows: When you take this Invocation, as long as you are not wearing armor or using a shield, your AC becomes 10 + dex + cha.
- Eldritch Claw: (pre-req: level 7, pact of the blade) When you cast a cantrip that requires a Ranged Spell Attack, You may make it as a melee spell attack instead. You must have one hand free to do this.
- Eldritch Sword: (pre-req: level 9, pact of the blade) During any round in which you cast a Cantrip, you may make a bonus attack with your pact weapon.
This kinda locks down your invocation progression to being something like this:
War 2: Armor of shadows, Agonizing Blast
War 3: Trade AB for Pact Combat
War 5: Thirsting Blade
War 7: Eldritch Claw
War 9: Eldritch Sword
War 11: Agonizing Blast
War 12: Trade AB for Lifedrinker
War 13: Agonizing blast
But you make up for it in vastly increased prowess:
- Assuming Dex based warlock with a Rapier, Hex, and the prior suggested chain of invocations
- Assuming Variant Human, relevant stats: 16 Dex, 14 Cha. Increased to 18 dex and 15 cha from Variant Human and Resilient: Dex.
Level 3: Take Blade Pact, Take Pact combat (Dueling), Take Armor of shadows. AC: 16, 1d8+1d6+6 damage per attack
Level 4: Boost Dex to 20. AC: 17, 1d8+1d6+7 damage per attack
Level 5: Take thirsting blade, now two attacks per round
Level 7: Option of 2d8+2d6+14 damage per round or 2d10+2d6 force damage per round
Level 8: Boost Cha to 17, AC 18
Level 9: Damage is now 2d10+1d8+3d6+7 damage per round in melee
Level 12: Boost Cha to 19, Take Lifedrinker. AC: 19, Damage is 3d10+1d8+ 4d6+11 in melee
Level 13: Take agonizing blast. Damage is now 3d10+1d8+4d6+23 in melee.
You could take the route of boosting your charisma instead, since Eldritch Claw comes online fairly quickly, and taking agonizing blast at an earlier level. Either way, melee beast.
- Pact combat: (pre-req: level 3, Pact of the Blade) You gain a fighting style from one of the following list: Dueling, Two Weapon Fighting, Defensive, Great Weapon Fighting, Mariner. You may select a different fighting style each time you take a long rest, gaining the benefits of the new one and losing the benefits of the old one. You may only take this Invocation once.
- Armor of Shadows: When you take this Invocation, as long as you are not wearing armor or using a shield, your AC becomes 10 + dex + cha.
- Eldritch Claw: (pre-req: level 7, pact of the blade) When you cast a cantrip that requires a Ranged Spell Attack, You may make it as a melee spell attack instead. You must have one hand free to do this.
- Eldritch Sword: (pre-req: level 9, pact of the blade) During any round in which you cast a Cantrip, you may make a bonus attack with your pact weapon.
This kinda locks down your invocation progression to being something like this:
War 2: Armor of shadows, Agonizing Blast
War 3: Trade AB for Pact Combat
War 5: Thirsting Blade
War 7: Eldritch Claw
War 9: Eldritch Sword
War 11: Agonizing Blast
War 12: Trade AB for Lifedrinker
War 13: Agonizing blast
But you make up for it in vastly increased prowess:
- Assuming Dex based warlock with a Rapier, Hex, and the prior suggested chain of invocations
- Assuming Variant Human, relevant stats: 16 Dex, 14 Cha. Increased to 18 dex and 15 cha from Variant Human and Resilient: Dex.
Level 3: Take Blade Pact, Take Pact combat (Dueling), Take Armor of shadows. AC: 16, 1d8+1d6+6 damage per attack
Level 4: Boost Dex to 20. AC: 17, 1d8+1d6+7 damage per attack
Level 5: Take thirsting blade, now two attacks per round
Level 7: Option of 2d8+2d6+14 damage per round or 2d10+2d6 force damage per round
Level 8: Boost Cha to 17, AC 18
Level 9: Damage is now 2d10+1d8+3d6+7 damage per round in melee
Level 12: Boost Cha to 19, Take Lifedrinker. AC: 19, Damage is 3d10+1d8+ 4d6+11 in melee
Level 13: Take agonizing blast. Damage is now 3d10+1d8+4d6+23 in melee.
You could take the route of boosting your charisma instead, since Eldritch Claw comes online fairly quickly, and taking agonizing blast at an earlier level. Either way, melee beast.
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My experience is that it makes as much of a melee warrior as an EK is a spell caster, which IMO is reasonable given that EK is a subclass and Blade Pact is strictly less than a subclass. I'm currently running a pact blade lock which is roughly 50/50 melee/ranged.
My mistake, I misunderstood your original statement. I compared weapon damage vs EB on the same character. For a weapon using warlock to approximately equal a pure AB Cha pumping warlock in damage requires Strength based build, but, contrary to the thread, it is more than possible.
Minsc
Explorer
I do this, but it's because I think taking the first level as a Fighter is so important to a Blade-lock. :/
See, I don't consider it to be an opportunity. I think its a requirement. If all you wanted was the ability to occasionally swing a weapon when they came in close, you'd take Book with the shillelagh cantrip.
Perhaps, but I did phrase it as an opinion, not hard fact. It is arguable. But I don't think that we're in good standing here when its just minor variations in play.
I also think that assuming that you're going to be eldritch blasting is a mistake, because Eldritch Blast is actually not a required pick for the class. Its "optimal" but I think the fact its still an option instead of core feature is telling.
Yes. I don't think its actually necessary, because I feel that extra push of damage is what Hex is for. We know that Hunter Mark is a critical feature of the Ranger damage because of the one Unearthed Arcana article, so I feel that we have to look at the warlock equivalent similarly.
In all truth, the minor boosts from a FS aren't the core issues. Damage is slightly lower for low levels, but its not too bad. Its the high levels that are an issue.
You're only guessing, not stating fact here. Chain is very confusing with how the familiar works - should it be used in combat like the beast companion? Or are you playing just like a Book with a find familiar ritual? Its debatable on the intent there, because it doesn't seem to work out.
There's too many questions to say that two of three are similar, let alone that the third path MUST be similar as well. Six of eight cleric domains attack with weapons. Two are clearly pure casters. Obviously, its possible to for a minority of the subclasses to make the different variations from the majority options.
If the options didn't exist, we'd still have people asking for a hexblade. While I would be patient for it, I would want it to come up. I give them strong props for what they did; it was bold, if in need of more play testing, feedback, and balancing.
And I suspect that "people" wouldn't be happy if it was a 4e warlock, because you'd still have those who wanted just the 3e warlock. This way, a book'lock with constant short rests actually can be a strong 4e style spell caster, while the few short rests reverts to a more 3e style.
I agree, based on both math and experience. You might be able to shake things up with a heavy-weapon multiclass optimization, but not the base class.
I agree to an extent - however, if you're using it to fix math holes, then you suddenly have no room for doing anything else, which hurts the class in a different way. You get so few as it is.
Though, I did do the same thing with Armor of Shadows in my game, making it more like the other Unarmed Defenses. Helps make up for the lack of Shield spell that other mage armor classes get.
Fighter level is important for the CON save (for maintaining Hex) and the heavy armor, letting you go with a heavy weapon build. The FS is just icing on the cake.
JackOfAllTirades
Explorer
Look at it this way: the Ranger has both a fighting style and hunter's mark (which is equivalent to hex). He gets the benefit of both, while the Warlock only gets one.
Furthermore, the Ranger is only a partial caster; he doesn't have a lot of other concentration spells in his repertoire competing with Hunter's mark, so as he goes up in level he gets a lot more use out of it than a typical BladeLock will get to use Hex. Darkness or Hex? Greater Invisibility or Hex? The Ranger doesn't have these problems.
So no, looking at a side-by-side comparison of the two, it's obvious the Hex feature alone does not put the BladeLock on an even footing with the Ranger, and a fighting style feature would help the BladeLock keep up.
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