D&D 5E (2024) Pact of the Chain + Nick Mastery

[UngeheuerLich]

Nick works fine. It’s a really straightforward balanced ability that lets you make an extra minor attack. It’s really close to the early edition two weapon fighting. It’s PotC that’s the problem.

Not even that. It is breaking the "favourable reading" guideline of the DMG.
At some point the team decided that it is not worth the work and space to try and close every possible loophole (which is an impossible task in a game as complex as D&D).
So they assume an audience that makes good judgement calls on such weird cases. And if a group wants to expoit such combinations, by all means, they should do it and break their own game.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not even that. It is breaking the "favourable reading" guideline of the DMG.
At some point the team decided that it is not worth the work and space to try and close every possible loophole (which is an impossible task in a game as complex as D&D).
So they assume an audience that makes good judgement calls on such weird cases. And if a group wants to expoit such combinations, by all means, they should do it and break their own game.

Could not break the game.

 

[Tessarael]

As a DM, I would allow it. Firstly, it is not unbalanced. Secondly, having both the Warlock and the familiar attack as part of the Warlock's action is thematically appropriate. I consider it a valid interpretation of the rules as written (RAW) albeit stretching the rules as intended (RAI).

However, using the Nick property in this manner requires Weapon Mastery, and Warlocks do not get that. So, the Warlock would need a level dip into Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, or Rogue to get Weapon Mastery to take advantage of this. That can result in a sub-optimal build vs. a single-classed Warlock, particularly if you're mixing in a familiar's attack rather than your own (which can benefit from a magic weapon, damage riders like Hex, etc.). So unless there's some weird broken power-gaming build that I am missing around this, I really don't see any problem.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

As a DM, I would allow it. Firstly, it is not unbalanced. Secondly, having both the Warlock and the familiar attack as part of the Warlock's action is thematically appropriate. I consider it a valid interpretation of the rules as written (RAW) albeit stretching the rules as intended (RAI).

However, using the Nick property in this manner requires Weapon Mastery, and Warlocks do not get that. So, the Warlock would need a level dip into Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, or Rogue to get Weapon Mastery to take advantage of this. That can result in a sub-optimal build vs. a single-classed Warlock, particularly if you're mixing in a familiar's attack rather than your own (which can benefit from a magic weapon, damage riders like Hex, etc.). So unless there's some weird broken power-gaming build that I am missing around this, I really don't see any problem.

Yep it is literally less powerful than just focusing on EB or weapon attacks

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Could not break the game.

So whatever. Play as you like. But this is clearly a weird ruling. Use a scimitar and attack once more.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yep it is literally less powerful than just focusing on EB or weapon attacks

But it is weird. If you like weird interactions, go for it. Does nit break the game... But certainly breaks my imagination.
Sorry. As long as I am the DM I say no. No matter how balanced it is.
Everyone is free to just leave my table.

 

[ECMO3]

That can result in a sub-optimal build vs. a single-classed Warlock, particularly if you're mixing in a familiar's attack rather than your own (which can benefit from a magic weapon, damage riders like Hex, etc.).

The multiclass, especially to Paladin, is optimal for just about any Warlock with Pact of the Blade and will be substantially better than the single class Pact of the Blade at almost every level. At most levels, this is going to typically be far better than using this for a Light weapon attack.

If you are replacing an attack you would get with nick, that attack would not get a bonus from strength or dexterity and it is with a 1d4 or 1d6 weapon so it is going to be quite rare that a Nick attack will be more powerful than a familiar attack from a familiar you would use to attack.

An Imp for example does 13.5 damage on a hit, a Spinx does 12.5, a Quasit does 5.5 and poisons the target with no save. By comparison a scimitar being used on a light attack does 3.5 damage and a Dagger does 2.5. If you have Hex it does 7, if it is a very rare +3 scimitar Scimitar it is 10.5.

So a nick attack with a +3 Scimitar while concentrating on Hex against a target that is Hexed still does less damage than an Imp or Sphinx.

Now, I don't think this will "break the game" but it is substantially more powerful than the nick attack it is replacing and clearly contrary to the rules for Light Weapon attacks and Nick, both RAW and RAI.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So whatever. Play as you like. But this is clearly a weird ruling. Use a scimitar and attack once more.

No, thanks, but you do you.

But it is weird. If you like weird interactions, go for it. Does nit break the game... But certainly breaks my imagination.
Sorry. As long as I am the DM I say no. No matter how balanced it is.
Everyone is free to just leave my table.

This seems like a really strong reaction to a non-broken, totally fictionally solvent, suggested ruling on a forum full of people you aren't at a table with. Does it really break your imagination? Why? It's a chain warlock attacking twice instead of once with their special familiar, barely making the chain pact viable as a primary combat option at the cost of a generally less optimized character overall, and fictionally it is literally the same as just using the normal chain pact feature to let the familiar attack...

like going into "take it or leave my table" mode in this particular context....like did I offend you somehow? What is happening, here?

The multiclass, especially to Paladin, is optimal for just about any Warlock with Pact of the Blade. At most levels, this is going to typically be far better than any single class Warlock that is using the attack action.

If you are replacing an attack you would get with nick that attack would not get a bonus from strength or dexterity and it is with a 1d4 or 1d6 weapon so it is going to be quite rare that a Nick attack will be more powerful than a familiar attack from a good familiar.

An Imp for example does 13 damage on a hit, a Quasit does 5.5 and poisons the target with no save. By comparison a scimitar being used on a light attack does 3.5 damage. If you have Hex it does 7, if it is a very rare +3 scimitar it is 10.5.

You should stick to what I say when you reply to me.

I said that it is always better to just focus on Eldritch Blast, than to multiclass to get this set up. Talk about paladins and warlocks twfing without familiars involved is completely tangential to that.

Also, the character in question has 1 level of fighter, which means they have a fighting style, probably twf, which means that yes, they will be adding their attack mod to their secondary attack when twf.

 

[ECMO3]

You should stick to what I say when you reply to me.

When I reply to you I will, but what you quoted was not a reply to you (unless you are posting by two different names)

As for what you said on this particular post:

I said that it is always better to just focus on Eldritch Blast, than to multiclass to get this set up. Talk about paladins and warlocks twfing without familiars involved is completely tangential to that.

No it isn't. As a matter of fact if you are building a highly-optimsed high damage character I would say it is rare that it would be good to focus on Eldritch Blast in 2024.

Putting aside a multiclass for a minute; a 3rd level Warlock with Agonizing Eldritch Blast is going to do 8.5 damage and attacks with disadvantage if he uses EB against targets within 5 feet. The same Warlock taking Agonizing Truestrike can do 10.5 DPR at range with a Light Crossbow and 13 DPR with a Greatsword in Melee. If you can use TCE Agonizing Green Flame Blade it is 14 damage to one target and 10 damage to a second. This gap gets larger as you gain more levels and you pick up Thirsting Blade and other invocations. I am not saying Eldritch Blast is bad, it is a fine Cantrip and fallback on a controller or versatile Warlock build, but it is not the way to go in the 2024 rules if you are looking for high damage on a Warlock

Make it a 2nd level Warlock/1st level Paladin and you get mastery on top of that DPR while having two 1st level spell slots, lay on hands, more hit points, a wider spell selection and armor.

Add the familiar example to this and the level 2 Warlock/1 Paladin is doing 6.5 damage with a shortsword and dueling, getting the Vex property on his attacks and then letting a Sphinx attack with the nick property of the scimitar he doesn't even have to own for another 12.5 damage, more than doubling the damage output of EB/AB while also getting mastery to boot.

Also, the character in question has 1 level of fighter, which means they have a fighting style, probably twf, which means that yes, they will be adding their attack mod to their secondary attack when twf.

Why would they have the two weapon fighting style feat when they will not be attacking with a Light Weapon?

I think you would want Paladin in this, not Fighter. But if you went Fighter or if you went 2 levels of Paladin to get a fighting style you would get dueling for high damage not two weapon fighting.

In terms of combat power the only thing that is not optimal with this exploit attempt is choosing a familiar that attacks at all. The most powerful familiar in combat is the Pseudodragon because of its ability to sting people and do 5 damage and make them unconscious. Your Warlock does not have to give up anything to do that because it is an ability not an attack. The Pseudodragon can do it at will and in most cases that is going to be more powerful than any of the Familiar attacks.

 

[Tessarael]

If you are replacing an attack you would get with nick, that attack would not get a bonus from strength or dexterity and it is with a 1d4 or 1d6 weapon so it is going to be quite rare that a Nick attack will be more powerful than a familiar attack from a familiar you would use to attack.

An Imp for example does 13.5 damage on a hit, a Spinx does 12.5, a Quasit does 5.5 and poisons the target with no save. By comparison a scimitar being used on a light attack does 3.5 damage and a Dagger does 2.5. If you have Hex it does 7, if it is a very rare +3 scimitar Scimitar it is 10.5.

I had missed that the Pact of the Chain improved familiar damage was significantly better for Imp and Sphinx of Wonder in D&D 2024.

At Warlock level 9, we can add in the Lifedrinker eldritch invocation for an extra +d6 weapon damage, which also works on the off-hand attack of a double-weapon pact weapon (or use the Polearm master for similar benefit with a Quarterstaff, Spear, or heavy + reach weapon). A highly optimized melee Pact of the Blade Warlock, who has cast Shadow of Moil, with say a double-bladed Scimitar +2 (2d4 main-hand, d4 bonus action attack) does d4+2 (magic weapon) +d6 Lifedrinker + 2d8, for 17 average damage, and assuming Charisma 20, that attack is at +11 (+4 proficiency bonus + 5 Charisma modifier + 2 magic weapon) vs. the Imp's or Sphinx of Wonder's being at attack +5.

At Warlock level 7, they can use Spirit Shroud instead, but don't have Lifedrinker, and then the average damage is d4+2 (magic weapon) + d8, for 9 average damage. That attack is at +8 (+3 proficiency bonus + 4 Charisma modifier + 2 magic weapon) vs. the Imp's or Sphinx of Wonder's being at attack +5 but doing more average damage than this.

I do agree that the familiar's attack damage is quite decent. The offensive boost of Pact of the Chain familiar's attack is really good at low levels, but a minor benefit for a high-level Warlock in my in game experience with an A5E Warlock using the A5E Frog Fangs eldritch invocation to allow the familiar to attack without use of my action or bonus action. The familiar also tends to go down very quickly in combat, if you're using it in melee at higher levels, which is a significant limitation on Pact of the Chain.

Regarding Pseudodragon, I would treat its poison sting as an attack. There's no reason to try it otherwise IMHO.