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D&D 4E Paizo and 4e.

DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
Hobo said:
Indeed. I can truthfully say that 3e (and to a lesser extent 3.5) have been a financial investment on my part. One that I haven't fully realized the benefits of yet. That's a reason why I'm reluctant to update at this time.

But it's not been an emotional investment in the least.


It's both for me (financial and emotional).

So I'm sad to be moving on - Stormreach will be the last edition-specific D&D product that I buy. But, such is life.
 

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Raven Crowking

First Post
Geron Raveneye said:
Well, you know...you CAN be kicked to the curb by somebody and hence stop using that somebody's products, but still care for that somebody and be hurt by the whole process. Okay, maybe not you you, but general "you" can. And apparently, a lot of those yous are posting here. I think that is indeed what some people here called brand loyalty...or rather, disappointed brand loyalty.

What strikes me as odd are the crossover between the folks who post "Where WotC goes, there goes the hobby" and "If you don't buy WotC products, why do you care where they go?"

RC
 

Raven Crowking

First Post
Dragonblade said:
The only problem is, listening to people voice their interest was ok after 4e was announced. Now we're two months later and the same people are still talking about the same stuff.

We get your excitement. You have conveyed it loud and clear. But its time to move on.

You are going to playing 4.0, then great. Go play it. Go post about it.

But the self-righteous declarations of like for 4e or WotC are getting tiresome. So you buy WotC products. You are a true martyr for the cause. What else do you want? A medal?


FIFY. :D :lol:
 

Rechan

Adventurer
Hobo said:
Indeed. I can truthfully say that 3e (and to a lesser extent 3.5) have been a financial investment on my part. One that I haven't fully realized the benefits of yet. That's a reason why I'm reluctant to update at this time.
This is a valid concern and complaint. It was the complaint I had when 4e was announced. I have quite a few 3e materials.

However, and I say this with the utmost respect: when you purchase anything, like a computer, a car, or even an RPG, you must expect, on some level, that a newer version will come out.

I mean, a year after you buy a computer, you have to upgrade it if you want to play the newer games. There will always be "Car Model for This Year".

With regards to RPGs, only a few companies are going to say "Okay, here's our game, we're done; there's to be no supplements or new editions. Turn the lights off when you leave!" D&D will never be this game.

The thing about cars, and video games, and RPGs, is that you don't have to buy the new stuff to enjoy your old stuff. There are people out there who still use their 2e material, hell, who still play 2e.

Ultimately, here is my feelings: if WotC continues to update/revise every 4-8 years, I'll stop buying. Namely because that's just Too Soon to say "Okay, everybody buy new books". I will only purchase a finite number of books before I toss in the towel and say "I'm done".

But then, I only play D&D because it's the most widely played game, the easiest to find groups with, and I know it much better than other systems.
 

Vigilance

Explorer
DaveMage said:
Because there are friends and publishers that read these forums. For those of us not switching, we want to communicate to people that they will have some support if they stick with 3.5. And we're explaining why.

And is there a reason you need to explain why every day?

In every 4e thread?

I seriously end up stopping to read most 4e threads after a couple of pages, because I see the same people expressing the same opinions, every day.

You don't want to upgrade.

I get it.

Really, I do.

I think a lot of the anti-4e posters are engaging in behavior that should not be allowed by the mods.

They come into threads that are happy and positive and steer them toward arguments every damn time.

If you guys are so adamant about not supporting 4e, is it not possible to let the rest of us enjoy the moment?

Any moment?

Chuck
 

tenkar

Old School Blogger
Vigilance said:
If you guys are so adamant about not supporting 4e, is it not possible to let the rest of us enjoy the moment?

Any moment?

Chuck

No Soup for you! heh

Count me as one that is along for the ride. Folks here complain about the revisions to the DnD rulebooks and at work I am making pencil changes to my Patrol Guide (which is larger then the 3 core 3.5 books combined) weekly as revisions come down. I'd appreciate a new version coming along every few years that is nicely updated. ;)
 

Desdichado

Adventurer
Rechan said:
However, and I say this with the utmost respect: when you purchase anything, like a computer, a car, or even an RPG, you must expect, on some level, that a newer version will come out.
Indeed. (I'm saying that a lot it seems.) The problem I have is that despite the clever title, 3.5 was for all intents and purposes a new edition. That means this is the third new edition in what... seven years? Eight? That's a little fast for me. No... that's a lot fast for me.

I mean, I'm not exactly complaining, I'm just saying that for me, the cost/benefit of 4e isn't as compelling because of all my 3e stuff. And for other reasons too---even though I think it sounds better than 3e---it's still not better enough (from what little I know so far) to make me feel like I'm better off upgrading.

I'm OK with that. I have a computer that's 7 years old, and can't really handle much in the way of modern games. I have a car that's 12 years old, and although it's neither a thing of beauty or comfort, it's been paid for for years, it still runs pretty darn well, and all I do is drive it to and from work anyway. I don't have a current gen game console; although I have an Xbox and a Gamecube. Maybe in a year or two I'll pick up a 360 and a Wii.

Maybe I'm just not the kind of customer WotC really wants; I'm fairly cheap, even about my hobbies. Not a compulsive spender, really. I'll never be the big spender, even though I'm much more heavily invested in 3e/3.5 than I ever have been in any other game system ever. I'm just not Mr. Compulsive Spender Early Adopter, I'm Mr. Cheap-ass Wait and See and make do with what I already have that still works just fine.

That's OK. That's just my own personal reasons, not a broad condemnation of WotC. If my game group hadn't expressed similar sentiments, I'd be concerned about finding a group where I could play my system of choice, though. That's the only thing that I could find it in my heart to resent about a new edition I wasn't ready for. And honestly, I could probably figure out how to deal with that without too much trouble.
Rechan said:
Ultimately, here is my feelings: if WotC continues to update/revise every 4-8 years, I'll stop buying. Namely because that's just Too Soon to say "Okay, everybody buy new books". I will only purchase a finite number of books before I toss in the towel and say "I'm done".
Exactly. The rate of upgrades since 3e is higher than I'm willing to support. The only reason 3.5 slipped by me was because 1) I could use the SRD (never bought the 3.5 core books, although I did pick up plenty of splat books) and 2) backwards compatability with 3e was high enough that I could mix and match sourcebooks without too much trouble.

Honestly, if backwards compatability were expected to be relatively high with 4e, I'd be a lot more interested in it than I am now.
Rechan said:
But then, I only play D&D because it's the most widely played game, the easiest to find groups with, and I know it much better than other systems.
Yeah, it's not my first choice either. It's kinda the "compromise choice." Some iteration of d20 would be, though. Even though I do have a few lingering complaints about a few things with the various d20/OGL games, the ability to pick up almost any OGL source and use it as is in any game based off the OGL is such a huge thing for me that any improvements to 4e will almost certainly be unable to compare.

Then again, I'll still use the SRD 4e and keep in touch with what's going on, and at least be in a position where I could play a 4e game if someone were running one.

Can't imagine I'd run one myself, though, with just the SRD.
 

Rechan

Adventurer
Hobo said:
Exactly. The rate of upgrades since 3e is higher than I'm willing to support. The only reason 3.5 slipped by me was because 1) I could use the SRD (never bought the 3.5 core books, although I did pick up plenty of splat books) and 2) backwards compatability with 3e was high enough that I could mix and match sourcebooks without too much trouble.
Aye; I game online, so the SRD has been an unparalleled resource for me. I have a few splatbooks, but the SRD has been my biggest use.

Were I DMing in person, at a table, that would be a whole 'nother story. Ah well. Until I move, I won't have much an option. :p

That and certain things that shall go unnamed.

Yeah, it's not my first choice either. It's kinda the "compromise choice." Some iteration of d20 would be, though. Even though I do have a few lingering complaints about a few things with the various d20/OGL games, the ability to pick up almost any OGL source and use it as is in any game based off the OGL is such a huge thing for me that any improvements to 4e will almost certainly be unable to compare.
There are other systems I'd prefer. I am waiting with baited breath for the Dresden Files RPG, and other little systems that so few seem to give a darn about. Oh well.

I plan on playing and running 4e, but I'm going to be a real curmudgeon about buying anything beyond the Core.
 
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DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
Vigilance said:
And is there a reason you need to explain why every day?

In every 4e thread?

Please, just put me on your ignore list.

Out of the top 40 threads on this page, I have posted in 7.
 

Vigilance

Explorer
DaveMage said:
Please, just put me on your ignore list.

Out of the top 40 threads on this page, I have posted in 7.

A) It isn't just you.

B) Only 1 thread out of 6 huh? Wow! You're right! You sure aren't making your way into EVERY thread!

C) Again, not directed at just you, but your comment was worth touching on, given that this is YET another time someone has asked you why you were in 4e threads all the time.

And the comment "well we want to make sure the designers know how we FEEL" was accomplished weeks ago.

I understood this reaction from people, rushing online to make sure they screamed to the heavens how they felt about this travesty 2 weeks after the announcement.

It's been what, 2 months now?
 

DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
Vigilance said:
A) It isn't just you.

B) Only 1 thread out of 6 huh? Wow! You're right! You sure aren't making your way into EVERY thread!

C) Again, not directed at just you, but your comment was worth touching on, given that this is YET another time someone has asked you why you were in 4e threads all the time.

And the comment "well we want to make sure the designers know how we FEEL" was accomplished weeks ago.

I understood this reaction from people, rushing online to make sure they screamed to the heavens how they felt about this travesty 2 weeks after the announcement.

It's been what, 2 months now?


Ooookay....

I mean...

Indeed.
 


Twowolves

First Post
Vigilance said:
And is there a reason you need to explain why every day?

In every 4e thread?

I seriously end up stopping to read most 4e threads after a couple of pages, because I see the same people expressing the same opinions, every day.

You don't want to upgrade.

I get it.

Really, I do.

I think a lot of the anti-4e posters are engaging in behavior that should not be allowed by the mods.

They come into threads that are happy and positive and steer them toward arguments every damn time.

If you guys are so adamant about not supporting 4e, is it not possible to let the rest of us enjoy the moment?

Any moment?

Chuck


This is funny, because I see the same exact behavior from the pro-4th ed guys, and not just in this forum but in the General Forum as well. Anything less than 100% agreement and/or fawning admiration for the changes being made draws some pretty snooty, elitist and unkind remarks.

If WotC came out and said the 4th ed core rulebooks were going to be printed on fruit roll-ups, there'd be 4 or 5 specific posters who would say things like "Finally!" or "We've been transcribing our rules onto fruit roll-ups for years now!" or "I for one welcome our new Fruity Masters!"

And don't forget, "If you don't like fruit roll-ups, then you just aren't the target audience for 4th ed. Adapt or perish!"
 


Kunimatyu

First Post
Hey, there's plenty of room for disagreement/discussion of upcoming 4e changes.

However, discussion of changes is NOT the same thing as harping on why you're staying with 3.5e. I don't like some of the changes (naming, too many elves, etc), but I'm not bringing the discussion back to 3.5 all the time.

Also, those who want the designers to know you still like 3.5, that's great -- come June '07, 4e is coming out, regardless of anything you say in the intervening time. Those are the facts, and WotC is far too committed to back out now, so 3.5 comments have ceased being productive contributions to the 4e forum.

Now, if you want to convince your favorite publisher to keep making 4e, great -- go to their forum and tell them that. Don't clog up the 4e forum with 3.5 grognardry.
 

Greylock

First Post
Twowolves said:
This is funny, because I see the same exact behavior from the pro-4th ed guys, and not just in this forum but in the General Forum as well. Anything less than 100% agreement and/or fawning admiration for the changes being made draws some pretty snooty, elitist and unkind remarks.

If WotC came out and said the 4th ed core rulebooks were going to be printed on fruit roll-ups, there'd be 4 or 5 specific posters who would say things like "Finally!" or "We've been transcribing our rules onto fruit roll-ups for years now!" or "I for one welcome our new Fruity Masters!"

And don't forget, "If you don't like fruit roll-ups, then you just aren't the target audience for 4th ed. Adapt or perish!"

You are my new hero. :eek:
 

Vigilance

Explorer
Twowolves said:
This is funny, because I see the same exact behavior from the pro-4th ed guys, and not just in this forum but in the General Forum as well. Anything less than 100% agreement and/or fawning admiration for the changes being made draws some pretty snooty, elitist and unkind remarks.

If WotC came out and said the 4th ed core rulebooks were going to be printed on fruit roll-ups, there'd be 4 or 5 specific posters who would say things like "Finally!" or "We've been transcribing our rules onto fruit roll-ups for years now!" or "I for one welcome our new Fruity Masters!"

And don't forget, "If you don't like fruit roll-ups, then you just aren't the target audience for 4th ed. Adapt or perish!"

And if the same people were coming into 3.5 threads two months later, to bring up how inferior 3.5 is, because its on paper and not that awesome pressed fruit, I would support you in calling them out.
 

Dragonblade

Adventurer
Twowolves said:
This is funny, because I see the same exact behavior from the pro-4th ed guys, and not just in this forum but in the General Forum as well. Anything less than 100% agreement and/or fawning admiration for the changes being made draws some pretty snooty, elitist and unkind remarks.

I have no problem with targeted criticisms of 4e. But if the sole purpose of your post is to proclaim that WotC "fired" you or that you won't buy 4e, then your post adds nothing of value to the discussion and is disruptive and disrespectful to the other posters.
 

Kunimatyu

First Post
Dragonblade said:
I have no problem with targeted criticisms of 4e. But if the sole purpose of your post is to proclaim that WotC "fired" you or that you won't buy 4e, then your post adds nothing of value to the discussion and is disruptive and disrespectful to the other posters.

Precisely. You would do everyone involved a service if you ceased to post in this manner, TW.
 

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