D&D 4E Paizo and 4e.

[catsclaw227]

I'd have to say that I fall within the group that believes that Paizo should delay Pathfinder 3, do a couple of extra Campaign Guides or Gamemastery Modules (excellent stuff, BTW - and it also works to flesh out Golarion).

If they decide to do their own take on OGL Fantasy 2008 (Pathfinder RPG, 3.75, whatever you want to call it), writing a book to support it, they're a risk that would require a heavily resource intensive effort that they may not be able pull of with their already harried project schedule. And they would be doing this on a flyer.

I think Erik knows what he is doing, and in the long run, will prosper, but I would focus on fleshing out Golarion with crunch lite setting material to fill the gaps between Pathfinder 2 and 3.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

The 4e launch is unlike any other (A/O)D&D Edition change ever because 3x can still continue to be supported.

Which is why I am so astonished that WoTC hasn't gotten the rules out to folks like Paizo and Necromancer. Paizo is probably the only company that can present a challenge to WoTC and 4E D&D by creating a 3.75, and they could easily co-opt them by just getting them the freaking rules already.

 

[Rechan]

Which is why I am so astonished that WoTC hasn't gotten the rules out to folks like Paizo and Necromancer. Paizo is probably the only company that can present a challenge to WoTC and 4E D&D by creating a 3.75, and they could easily co-opt them by just getting them the freaking rules already.

My thinking is that WotC hasn't gotten them the rules all ready because WotC doesn't have the freaking rules yet.

Which is not a good thing at all.

I think WotC is seriously hamstringing themselves by not getting at least some prototype rules to the 3rd parties stat.

 

[Darkwolf71]

Maybe I am wrong about the tone with which you were intending, but it came across to me like you were saying "I'm not one of those bottom feeding fanboy wretches".

Well, in a way, I am. But at the same time, I'm saying "I'm not one of those who hates WotC with the white hot fury of a thousand suns either". I stand firmly in a middle ground of 'Wait and see'. (Fun fact: I am much more critical of WotC on their own boards, but that is due to their incredibly poor marketing decisions more than anything.)

So I apologize if I am mistaken, but it's really easy to lump you with hazel monday and his "True enough, as evidenced by the amount of peole who've pledged undying loyalty to a game system they haven't even seen yet. I wish gamers in general were a bit more discerning in their tastes."

He actually has a point, but on the flip-side of his coin, hating the new, unseen system for the sake of hate is is just as blind. IMO.

I've had it up to here with being associated with sheep because I don't agree with someone. I get that enough in politics.

Yep, just be carful not to make the same mistake yourself.

I know people in the middle ground of this issue are rare, but I truly am one. I want only the best for the futre of D&D. As yet I am unconvinced of whether 4e is or is not that best.

 

[GVDammerung]

Which is why I am so astonished that WoTC hasn't gotten the rules out to folks like Paizo and Necromancer. Paizo is probably the only company that can present a challenge to WoTC and 4E D&D by creating a 3.75, and they could easily co-opt them by just getting them the freaking rules already.

Agreed. Wotc seems to have approached the edition change in a very haphazard fashion - announcing way more than they could immediately deliver or even meaningfully preview. 4e seems to still be a work in substantial progress less than a year from its launch. I find this baffling from a business standpoint unless Hasbro ambushed them and demanded 4e _NOW_ before Wotc was really prepared to announce/deliver it. This is where I have some hesitation in saying 4e will be just so uber cool that no one will want to play anything else. It may be but 4e looks like an on-the-fly rush job to me at this point. The fact that Wotc hasn't prioritized the 4e OGL, d20 license and OGL is surprising, unless they are too busy with other things, which would then suggest the rush job. Either way, I'm leery. However, all this opens opportunities for 3rd party publishers and a 3.75 Edition to find a niche outside 4e D&D.

 

[Darkwolf71]

Correct. There are no precedent to this edition change because of the OGL. Someone with a good reputation on the market might be able to create a niche with a continuous 3.X support.

For the first time in gaming history, following the edition change is not the obvious business decision.

Green Ronin and Mongoose come immediatly to mind. I'm not very familiar with true 20, but the later... d20 Conan has a suprisingly large base of players. It's a very well written variation of the 3.5 ruleset and seeing as how the just released a 2nd edition of the game I doubt they will be updating it to 4e in the near future. 3.x will continue. At least for a while.

 

[Rechan]

I know people in the middle ground of this issue are rare, but I truly am one. I want only the best for the futre of D&D. As yet I am unconvinced of whether 4e is or is not that best.

Well, part of the fact is, if you don't have a problem with anything they've put out, you're clearly a kewl anime fanboy, and if you don't like anything that's been done, you're a grognard who hates change.

I have only seen one thing that is problematic to me, but it's more a suspicion than them coming out and saying "This is what we're doing".

I guess I just fall into the category that WotC is marketing towards. It has nothing to do with loyalty to the corporation, just the changes are changes that I feel are good for the way I like to game.

 

[catsclaw227]

You intentionally or blythly ignore what is driving Paizo - WOTC has failed to deliver the 4e OGL, d20 license and SRD in a timely manner to allow third party publishers to make business decisions. What do you expect? Paizo and other 3rd party publishers to wait and wait and wait on Wotc untill their business is compromised? Wotc is a business and so are these 3rd party publishers. If Wotc won't do business then it just msakes sense that the 3rd party publishers will have to figure out how to do business without Wotc.

Do you get it? This is a stew of Wotc's making. If your prefer, it is Wotc's fault that the conversation is taking place because Wotc has failed to timely deliver the 4e OGL, d20 license and SRD.

I believe if you look at Erik Mona's posts, as well as Orcus/Clark's posts from Necromancer here on EnWorld it's much more likely that this is a "no-fault" situation. I agree that marking Paizo as "anti-WOTC" is an unfair deduction from Erik's posts, but I would also say that passing fault on WOTC is similarily unfair.

Both have stated that WOTC is likely up to their eyeballs in deadlines, meetings, development, financial analysis, etc. And as a result they haven't had the time to get it out. I would venture to guess that it's a priority of WOTC's, but it is one of a number of juggled priorities. I think that even though it hasn't been given a hard deadline, it has been given a soft deadline of November.

 

[Darkwolf71]

Well, part of the fact is, if you don't have a problem with anything they've put out, you're clearly a kewl anime fanboy, and if you don't like anything that's been done, you're a grognard who hates change.

Heh, In all honesty, I am a Grognard. Been playing since the early 80's and IMO 2nd ed is far superior to 3.x. Which isn't to say 3rd is bad, just not as good, in my opinion. 4th... Well we'll see, we'll see.

 

[Greyson]

Nice "anti 4th Edition" Gloss

Thankfully, Mr. Mona has come to ENWorld, again, to make a shorter post that does not lose the attention of the less focused reader, to explain the facts about Paizo's looming decision.

The world is waiting on Wizards of the Coast to release information conducive to OGL 4th Edition publishing. That is all. There is no neither explicit nor implied language suggesting Paizo is going to belligerently oppose 4th Edition and espouse a long term 3.5 only business model. Paizo might be compelled to maintain 3.5 efforts in 2008 because of Wizards of the Coast's inability to deliver the necessary OGL components to facilitate earlier 4th Edition Paizo work.

The "anti-4th Edition" gloss is regrettable.