D&D 4E Paizo and 4e.

[ideasmith]

Find me just ONE THING about 3.5e that everyone agrees must be changed for 3.75e.

Making monks proficient with unarmed strikes?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

And I would love to see that as well. And I would pay for it.

But I agree with your post, which is why I said what I did.

My ability to dabble with pet projects is significantly greater than Paizo's.

I can't imagine I won't do something. 4e would have to blow my socks off and leave me with nothing to add.

But again... seriously... I don't think I can find two people to agree on just one thing that has to be changed to improve 3.5e. I don't even know where to start. (At the moment I am just dissecting the system again...)

 

[Aristotle]

I think assuming that a game that runs any system other than the currently supported WotC system is doomed to die is a little unfounded. Lots of non-d20 games exist now, and are profitable. I don't see why games that remain 3.5 compliant wouldn't be able to do the same in theory. They have the benefit of using a proven rule system that a lot of people in the hobby already have exposure to, and the potential support of other game companies who also choose to remain 3.5 compliant.

I plan to move to 4E as quickly as humanly possible but, unlike edition changes in the past or for other games, I don't plan to retire my entire 3.5 bookshelf. My core books, and my short list of "best of the best products" will stay on the shelf for now... if a company wants to market 3.5 material to me that I actually want to buy and add to that shelf, I'll remain open to it for a while to come.

Green Ronin isn't announcing plans to release new editions of it's (heavily modified) 3.5 based d20 brands. I'd guess others, like Crafty Games' Spycraft, will similarly hold to their latest respective editions as well.

The open gaming license ensures that this edition change doesn't have to be as definitive as those of the past. Just how profitable will it be to go either way? I'm sure all of the companies with strong, ongoing, product lines are doing the research on that as we speak.

 

[hazel monday]

And let's remember: when 4E comes out, it will be new. And shiny. And no one likes new and shiny things more than gamers.

--Steve

True enough, as evidenced by the amount of peole who've pledged undying loyalty to a game system they haven't even seen yet. I wish gamers in general were a bit more discerning in their tastes. All we're showing WOTC with this attitude is that they don't need to work that hard for our dollars. They could write 200 pages of organic soap recipes and people'd buy it and try to play it.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Fair enough.



Actually, I think Paizo has dug their own hole here: Pathfinder.

By committing to Pathfinder, they've killed their ability to adapt quickly. They have six month spans where they must use one edition. (And, let's face it, Paizo probably knew before anyone else that 4e was coming, due to the cancellation of the magazines). Orcus and Necromancer aren't in that bind.

Cheers!

Note that Pathfinder will be able to switch to 4E just in time for Gen Con next year, if they have enough lead-in time after getting hold of the rules. The third adventure path will begin in August. I wouldn't call that a bind. It seems like perfect timing, to me.

 

[Arnwyn]

It is my impression that Paizo is setting itself up as the anti-4e company, aided by the fans on its forums.

Does anyone else get this impression?

Nope, not even remotely.

 

[dmccoy1693]

True enough, as evidenced by the amount of peole who've pledged undying loyalty to a game system they haven't even seen yet. I wish gamers in general were a bit more discerning in their tastes. All we're showing WOTC with this attitude is that they don't need to work that hard for our dollars.

The more 4E news I hear, the more I think about 4E and 5E Traveller. I'm not talking Mongoose's Traveller or GURPS or T20. I mean Marc Miller's Traveller. 4E was highly antisipated and largely ignored by Traveller fans. The system was bad, the fluff wasn't what the fans wanted, and so on. 5E, despite numerous delays and the fact that most long time Traveller fans are mad that it is mostly based on 4E, may sell decently well because Marc Miller (the brain behind Traveller 1E-4E) is doing it. Meanwhile, Mongoose is putting out an edition that appears to be on schedule, exactly what the long time traveller fans and noob traveller fans want (how it pleases both baffles my mind, but they are doing it) and is OGL.

I don't understand why people are pronouncing doom and gloom if Paizo leaves 4E behind. I mean the mechanical changes to d20 4E sound great. The fluff has me less then thrilled. And I know I am not the only one that thinks that way. A Pathfinder RPG (if its OGL) would be something I am interesed in because it sounds like it would leave the fluff where it belongs and follows a similar path of mechanical changes that 4E would use. Other companies have left d20 publishing for their own systems (Green Ronin/Mongoose) and they are doing quite well for themselves. So why do people believe that Paizo will fail if they do similar? Paizo will be delivering exactly what some customers want.

 

[Henry]

By committing to Pathfinder, they've killed their ability to adapt quickly. They have six month spans where they must use one edition. (And, let's face it, Paizo probably knew before anyone else that 4e was coming, due to the cancellation of the magazines). Orcus and Necromancer aren't in that bind.

Cheers!

Actually, it's because of Pathfinder's existance and the way it's planned that I wonder just how much idea Paizo received that 4E was coming. It's just my speculation, but all the material planned makes me think that WotC didn't give them Inkling 1 that 4E was to be announced when they were reverting the licenses. I'm not accusing WotC of anything wrong, but Erik's comments back then made me think Paizo was caught almost as unawares as the rest of us (or at least maybe only had a few weeks warning at most, not as far back as January or March.)

 

[Darkwolf71]

Hopefully you have on a flame-proof suit, but I just wanted to say that I agree with you 100%.

Folks, I think some of you are reading too much into WP's statements. He's not bashing Paizo, merely pointing out that once 4E launches, 3X will become an ever-shrinking market. Add to that the fact that no one really knows what a "3.75 edition" would really be, and you end up with taking an increasing share of an ever-decreasing market.

Not good business.

Of course, this is assuming that 4e doesn't crash and burn. Not saying that it will, or even that I think it wiil, but it is a possibility. Even if it does not, a company that continues to support 3.5 could do very well. I suspect there will be even more 3.5 holdouts playing than there are 2nd ed holdouts currently. Will the 3.x market shrink? Almost definatly. Will it dissappear altogether? That remains to be seen and I think there is a strong possibility that it will not.

And let's remember: when 4E comes out, it will be new. And shiny. And no one likes new and shiny things more than gamers. 3X will continue to be played, just like all of the earlier editions are, not in a capacity that allows for anything other than a cottage industry to survive based around it.

--Steve

Shadowrun 4e, anybody? Not well recieved by the existing fanbase. Not all changes are gold simply becasue they are new and shiney.

 

[SteveC]

True enough, as evidenced by the amount of peole who've pledged undying loyalty to a game system they haven't even seen yet. I wish gamers in general were a bit more discerning in their tastes. All we're showing WOTC with this attitude is that they don't need to work that hard for our dollars. They could write 200 pages of organic soap recipes and people'd buy it and try to play it.

I'd say "yes and no" to this one. One of the reasons that WotC is in the position they're in is because they put out good products. I haven't seen 4th Edition (obviously) but I have faith in the designers who are working on it. That faith is entirely due to their track record of past performance. They do work hard for our money, as is evidenced (to me) by Star Wars Saga Edition. I think that's an absolutely amazing book that takes the core D20 mechanic is some great directions. Add the Tome of Battle to that, which I also like, and I think I will really like the a lot of what is in 4E.

I don't like everything about the game that I've heard so far (Warlock, I'm looking at you!) but that won't keep me from picking up the core books. If I don't like the new edition, there are plenty of other games out there for me to play, and the secondary market for the game will likely be very strong with the initial surge of interest. Will I stay with 3X in that case? For a short time, sure, but by then I expect there will be products that are in line with what I really like.

That's the tricky part: WotC is on top right now, but that position makes them market to a much broader audience than a smaller company has to. As a result, they have less "flavor" to their products, but they're not exactly organic soap recipes either.

--Steve