Pathfinder 1E Paizo Bites- A Rant

[Bendris Noulg]

Actually, no, I'm not missing the point. When I sign the contract, I know my name is attached to the product and I know changes can be made to the product under my name. If I want to address that, I need to change the contract. If I don't change the contract, that's my problem.

Alright, you didn't miss my point, but this is the first reply that actually reads like you're addressing it.

At the very least, it does come down to the post I made in the "Culture" thread: It's now time for me to pay as much attention to editors as I do to authors, especially since I've likely written off a number of writers because of poor design work that wasn't credited to the actual hack that wrote it.

(BTW, is The Postman better as a book? The movie had a decent premise but did little for me as a film...)

 

[S'mon]

The Postman is a pretty good book BTW, one of my favourites.

I'm glad that here in UK we don't have quite the same fundamentalist approach to sanctity-of-contract that several posters here have expressed. I'm slightly surprised that many of the most fervent expressions in favour of absolute sanctity-of-contract theory seem to be from Canadian-based posters. In English law the general approach is that where there's inequality of bargaining power contract terms are, firstly, always to be construed in favour of the weaker party, and secondly terms are often set aside if they conflict with statutory or common law. Although it's possible to make 'work for hire' in UK that would normally only be the case for salaried employees, just because a magazine offers me money for an article they commission that wouldn't make it 'for hire' and while I could sell the copyright in the finished article I sent the mag, I would retain copyright in all previous versions - and could publish them elsewhere, in theory (the publisher might be annoyed).

 

[Ranger REG]

I dunno. Authors retaining copyright is what got WotC in a legal tangle when it comes to releasing a Dragon Magazine Archive CD-ROM. While it did eventually released, the hassle over reprint right has given WotC serious consideration and perhaps for Paizo if they want to do a sequel expansion.

As for Paizo's Dark Sun treatment, I have to look at it, examined it, and see if it is possible that after 300 years (from which this setting is placed in the timeline), they may have a few enlightened individual in such a bleak setting to have a black-n-white perspective in a gray-colored society that have the conviction to become paladins.

Or does it remain status quo, with or without the material from the Athas.org web site? Should it remain status quo over 300 years timespan?

 

[Pramas]

However, now the editors/developers take it and change it. They've got the right, no one's argueing that. However, in being released, there is a sizable amount of outcry about how much it sucks. And, as discussion over it reveals, what people are most upset about are the parts you didn't write. However, it's your name, not the editors/developers, that is attached to the material, and therefore it is you, not them, that is being rediculed, berated, or otherwise ripped on for it. This has a further trickle down effect: People associate your name to something they didn't like and are thus less likely to notice (and purchase!) further material associated to you.

Let me give you scenario #2.

Author submits a manuscript to a publisher. At its core it has some good ideas (so it isn't just rejected out of hand) but it suffers from ill-conceived mechanics, poor organization, less than stellar writing, and a general failure to understand common d20 design principles. The publisher hands the document off to a developer and then an editor (in some cases, the same person, often not) to polish it up. Through their efforts, something that was mediocre becomes good and maybe even great. The book is released, the 5 of 5 reviews start to roll in here on EN World. And who gets the credit? Is it the developer? Is it the editor? Hell no, it's the designer.

Note that it's not that the developer and editor aren't credited. They are, just as the editor of the Dark Sun materials was credited. It's just that most gamers don't understand the process (and really, why should they?), so they assume all genius flows from the designers.

This happens all the time. It is far more common than your scenario. That's why I call developers the unsung heroes of the RPG industry. By and large, they are the folks who make sure that material is up to snuff. If you could see the raw manuscripts of many of your favorite books, it'd be an eye-opening experience. It's not that there aren't great designers out there who turn over clean material that requires very little development (because there are), it's just that those folks are the minority. It's far more likely the guy whose name you associate with great design has benefited tremendously from good editors and developers. There are big name designers out there who can barely string two sentences together and wouldn't know how to do a stat block correctly to save their lives. That may sound like hyperbole; it's not.

Creating RPGs is a group effort. Design talent does count for a lot, but editors, developers, artists, and graphic designers play crucial roles in making the final books you hold in your hands.

 

[Ranger REG]

Chris,

What is your take on Paizo's Dark Sun Player's Handbook treatment in Dragon?

 

[Pramas]

Chris,

What is your take on Paizo's Dark Sun Player's Handbook treatment in Dragon?

You mean the actual content? I have no opinion because I haven't yet gotten the issue in question.

 

[Ranger REG]

Let me know when you've finished examining it ... or them (Dungeon offered the three DS items: a DMG/campaign setting, monster supplement, and an advenure).

 

[Bendris Noulg]

This happens all the time. It is far more common than your scenario. That's why I call developers the unsung heroes of the RPG industry. By and large, they are the folks who make sure that material is up to snuff. If you could see the raw manuscripts of many of your favorite books, it'd be an eye-opening experience. It's not that there aren't great designers out there who turn over clean material that requires very little development (because there are), it's just that those folks are the minority. It's far more likely the guy whose name you associate with great design has benefited tremendously from good editors and developers. There are big name designers out there who can barely string two sentences together and wouldn't know how to do a stat block correctly to save their saves. That may sound like hyperbole; it's not.

No, it doesn't sound like hyperbole. It actually makes a whole lot of sense. To which, however, if the material requires that much work, I must ask: Why aren't these products receiving dual-authorship? I mean, if someone were working for me and I know that he corrected 70% of a manuscript and then added another 20% of prime-grade material, I don't think that I, as the publisher, could present the material as being having a single author (that being the the writer of the original manuscript). Is there a business/legal reason for this (such as being part of the contract), or is this how it evolved over the years and so now it's "just how it's done"? If the later, I'd personally like to see that change for the sake of giving credit where credit is due.

(Side Topic: When can we expect a BC sneak peak?)

 

[Ranger REG]

I don't know about you, but giving Matt Sernett the credit as a writer would put both him and David up for equal blame. I think most of the posters here have sympathy for David but little or none for Matt as the editor of the material.

(Poor Matt. I just hope this is an isolated incident.)

 

[Pramas]

No, it doesn't sound like hyperbole. It actually makes a whole lot of sense. To which, however, if the material requires that much work, I must ask: Why aren't these products receiving dual-authorship?

Sometimes that does happen. More often than not, if you see a byline that says "Johnny NoTalent with Jack the Cleaner," it means Jack had to do so much work on Johnny's manuscript that he ended up with an author credit.

(Side Topic: When can we expect a BC sneak peak?)

It'll be in design until early June, so I wouldn't expect a peak until August maybe. We are trying to sort out some Black Company demos at GenCon, if you'll be there.