D&D 5E Paladin and Ranger Are Backward

[fearsomepirate]

The thing is that the Paladin spell list is a lot smaller than it looks. If we look at the first level spells the only ones that aren't concentration are Ceremony (25GP cost), command, cure wounds, and purify food & drink. And there are very few you use outside combat. Second level's better (the Pokemount and Zone of Truth both stand out).

Right, but a Ranger can't, in reality, have even that many. Sure, there are only 4 Paladin non-concentration spells. But a PHB Ranger (I don't have TCE, don't know it) doesn't even have access to 4 spells until 5th level, and probably won't have 4 1st-level spells until 8th level. The Ranger spell progression is just extremely limiting.

 

[CleverNickName]

I think someone could build a serviceable "ranger" by reskinning the Eldritch Knight subclass. Allow the EK to choose spells from the druid list, and swap out Weapon Bond and War Magic for the ranger's Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer, and Land's Stride. It's not going to be perfect for everyone, but I think that could be fun to play.

And I think you could make a "paladin" in the same manner: allow the EK to choose spells from the cleric list, swap out the EK abilities for Lay On Hands and Divine Smite or whatever. Again, not perfect but I think it would be fun.

TL;DR: ranger and paladin (and barbarian, and monk, etc.) could easily be subclasses of fighter.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Right, but a Ranger can't, in reality, have even that many. Sure, there are only 4 Paladin non-concentration spells. But a PHB Ranger (I don't have TCE, don't know it) doesn't even have access to 4 spells until 5th level, and probably won't have 4 1st-level spells until 8th level. The Ranger spell progression is just extremely limiting.

Even then a Ranger at fifth level can have Goodberry for healing, Hunter's Mark for combat, Absorb Elements for protection, and Pass Without Trace as their L2 spell and as bonuses Speak with Animals and Beast Sense (replacing Primal Awareness and getting a slot each before you use your normal slots) for scouting and intel gathering.

I don't think that, despite the fact they can know more spells, Paladins can remotely cover that sort of range off the spells they do get in any given day. That said it's fairly ridiculous that paladins get stat modifier to spells prepared when rangers don't to spells known. That part should be the other way.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I might even go so far to drop the ritual spells from the Ranger spell list and instead cast all remaining spells similar to pact magic.
Then give them X number of rituals once per long rest.

I’m not really down for that, tbh

An idea I had was Bane spells that had a bonus action cast on a weapon attack hit. It would have a base effect like a smite spell, but would have increased/extra effect on a favoured enemy.

As class features that cost spell slots, that could work.

9 if you're allowing Tasha's alternate features (7 if you aren't; Primal Awareness is for all practical purposes a spell).

And unless they have a low charisma, the Paladin will still have more.

The thing is that the Paladin spell list is a lot smaller than it looks. If we look at the first level spells the only ones that aren't concentration are Ceremony (25GP cost), command, cure wounds, and purify food & drink. And there are very few you use outside combat. Second level's better (the Pokemount and Zone of Truth both stand out).

The ranger isn’t brimming with non concentration spells either. It’s a major point of frustration for players of low level rangers.

Regardless, there is no reason for the Paladin to have prepared spells but the ranger not.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Regardless, there is no reason for the Paladin to have prepared spells but the ranger not.

The ranger has learned their stuff so they can always do it. And not all rangers learn the same things. To me that justifies a spells known mechanic where not all rangers are interchangeable.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The ranger has learned their stuff so they can always do it. And not all rangers learn the same things. To me that justifies a spells known mechanic where not all rangers are interchangeable.

Okay. I’d rather the ranger have the biggest tool box possible.

 

[GlassJaw]

At the minimum, the ranger needs to cast and prep spells like the paladin. That they have to choose known spells and the paladin, cleric, and druid do not is really inconsistent design.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

At the minimum, the ranger needs to cast and prep spells like the paladin. That they have to choose known spells and the paladin, cleric, and druid do not is really inconsistent design.

Yep. Tbh Bard is the only class I’d keep as a known spells caster, and that is because I think the bard is too focused on Spellcasting as it is. Even EK and AT I’d give prepared spells to.

 

[Wrathamon]

Paladin's cast spells with spell slots? :I

 

[Minigiant]

Okay. I’d rather the ranger have the biggest tool box possible.

The issues with ranger spellcasting are the few exclusive spells, the few spells tied to handling various foes and terrains, and the few spells known.