Paladin as core class or Prc, simple poll

[uv23]

Up until recently, I was a big supporter of the paladin as a core class but I've recently done a 180 and moved into the paladin-as-PrC camp. I like the idea of the church choosing warriors of high standing as elite soldiers of the church, that are then blessed by their god to better serve the church.

So which camp are you in? Feel free to give any reasons, flavor-based or otherwise. Cheers.

 

[the Jester]

Core class.

Why?

Tradition.

 

[Mr Fidgit]

i voted core class

one of my DMs likes paladins (or champions) to be a PrC for each god, so, no core paladins in his game

(but neither core paladins or his PrCs have been played much at all in our games. like...once)

i really don't have a strong opinion either way, but that's the way paladins get handled in my group's games...

 

[Gez]

My reasons:

Lazyness: This makes me one less class to devise.
Boredom: There's enough PrCs, I won't add more when that's not necessary.
Flavor: My world was built with the idea that there are 1st-level paladins.
Fairness: If paladins becomes a prestige class for figther/cleric characters, then rangers should become a prestige class for fighter/druid characters.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Core class, with modifications. I still think it's a good concept for a core class, it's just not a very clean concept.

The problem for me was always, why is Paladin a core class but Blackguard a PrC? Why should you have to be a good Paladin first to Fall to the best abilities, when in all fairness it's just as likely for an Evil god to start people off as their anti-Paladins? And how about anti-Falling? If I start as an evil Paladin and get "redeemed", do I gain more abilities than someone who was always good?

Then there's the other Paladin-like PrCs (Holy Liberator?); you can't multiclass with a Paladin, but if you take one of those you effectively can.

So, I reworked the core Paladin to actually be four sub-classes. Guardian (LG), Crusader (CG), Blackguard (LE), and Shadow Knight (CE). Sort of like how a Psion has 6 sub-classes; you can't mix them, each has some slight differences, etc.
It's made things a lot easier to manage.

I also reworked mounts, but that's a different topic.

 

[der_kluge]

PrC all the way.

Here's mine:

Paladin Prestige Class
Hit Dice: d10

Requirements
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Diplomacy: 2 ranks
Knowledge (religion): 4 ranks
Alignment: Must be Lawful Good
Special: Must be knighted and appointed by a cleric of at least 12th level.

Class Skills
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Paladin.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient in all armor, all shields, and all simple and martial weapons.

Spells: A Paladin’s caster level is equal to his Paladin level plus any divine spellcasting levels he may have. The Paladin’s spell list remains the same.
Remove Disease: The Paladin can remove disease a number of times equal to his Paladin level / 2, per week.
The other special abilities are just as they are listed in the PHB.
Code of Conduct, Associates, and the rules for ex-paladins remain the same.

Base Fort Ref Will Spells Per Day
Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special 1 2 3 4
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Detect Evil, Divine Grace 0 - - -
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Divine Health, Lay on Hands 0 - - -
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Smite Evil 1 0 - -
4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Special Mount 1 0 - -
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Turn Undead 1 1 0 -
6 +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Remove Disease 1 1 0 -
7 +7+/2 +5 +2 +2 2 1 1 0
8 +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Aura of Courage 2 1 1 0
9 +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 2 2 1 1
10 +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 2 2 1 1
11 +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 3 2 2 1
12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 3 2 2 1
13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 3 3 2 2
14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 3 3 2 2
15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 3 3 3 2

(well, the table gets all screwed up, but with some time you could repair it in Word or Excel)

 

[Shirt Guy John]

I say core class. For one thing I think it works if you think of them not as the elite but just as agents dedicated to their gods. I like the idea of breaking paladin/blackguard into four classes, but for me, I would have many more paladins than the others anyways in my group.

 

[Chun-tzu]

I could go either way on this, but when push comes to shove, I'd say core class.

A lot of the "Paladin as prestige class" appeal comes from RP considerations, rather than mechanical ones. The title of Paladin is something that must be earned. Except the thing is, most prestige classes aren't prestigious. They're just more specialized. Granted the Paladin is a much more focused and less customizable class than Fighter or Rogue, but it's no less focused than the Monk, or Barbarian, or Druid, or other classes.

Making Paladins a PrC also kind of kills Paladin-based PrCs, and while WotC hasn't released many compelling Paladin PrCs, there have been many great ones in d20 and posted here.

If Paladin were made into a PrC, I'd make the Cavalier or Knight a core class. I'd choose those over Holy Warrior because they're more archetypal.

 

[Crothian]

Core class. I like the idea of inexperienced religios devoted combat specilists.

 

[Chun-tzu]

The problem for me was always, why is Paladin a core class but Blackguard a PrC? Why should you have to be a good Paladin first to Fall to the best abilities, when in all fairness it's just as likely for an Evil god to start people off as their anti-Paladins? And how about anti-Falling? If I start as an evil Paladin and get "redeemed", do I gain more abilities than someone who was always good?

The idea of Paladins as core and Blackguards and Holy Liberators as PrCs works for me, in the morally unambiguous world of D&D. The Paladin is the ultimate champion of good, representing all that is good and noble. There is no equivalent for evil or chaos. The Blackguard is a perversion of the Paladin. The Holy Liberator is a Paladin "wannabe", who has many Paladin-like abilities, but is not a true Paladin.

Can you start out evil and become a Paladin? No. If you have been truly evil, then you are forever tainted. In my book, redemption is something you can and should strive for, but can never be truly attained. But that doesn't invalidate the quest. No one can be perfect, but that doesn't mean we stop trying to improve ourselves.