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D&D 5E Paladin/Hexblade+Options

DEFCON 1

Legend
I believe there is nothing wrong whatsoever in setting down a select amount of things a player can select from to make a character. So if you want to restrict Tritons to an NPC race because the pirates will be engaging them in the campaign, then you are more than justified in doing that. Likewise the same is true for multiclassing.

As far as playing a paladin with a Hexblade dip... if it was me the first thing I'd ask of the player is what exactly is their reason for wanting to do it? If it's just as simple as them wanting to be able to attack and damage using Charisma... then that says to me the player doesn't necessarily want a high Strength-- or they have a specific combination of higher abilities they want that isn't Strength and they want to save their point buy to raise up their INT or DEX or something. At that point, I'd just work it out with them to find a way to get them a higher INT bump without needing to Hexblade dip (thus still having to prioritize STR and CHA like all paladins do while also getting a tertiary or off-brand stat up to a certain level.)

But whatever the case... when someone tells me they want to level dip in a second class, it usually implies some game mechanic they want that their base class doesn't get. And rather than have them multiclass I just work with the player to do feature swaps or wholesale adoptions to bring in those mechanics the player wants. Unless of course they just want to do all the things so they can decimate everything in combat... at which time I remind them that DRAMA comes when your character's back is against the wall, so trying to OP your character with as many 'I win" buttons just ain't happening. ;)
 

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Volund

Explorer
So being to unreasonable or fair enough?
It's fair and reasonable if you shared with the players ahead of time what the character creation rules were so they could decide whether to play in the campaign or not and knew what characters to bring to session zero. Nothing wrong with limiting races, class and subclass options, and toggling on/off feats or multi-classing to fit the campaign. I don't think it's fair to imply that the whole character tool box is open and then allowing or disallowing character options on a case by case basis at session zero. That has a higher likelihood of feeling arbitrary and personal to the player who's character is disallowed. The best outcome is that the other players who have read your (short!) campaign guide will tell the player that their Triton Hexblade/Paladin isn't allowed so you don't have to.

Borrowing from a format shared by Matt Colville, I've started using a campaign pitch to make sure that the players and I have a meeting of the minds on what type of game we are all agreeing to play. The last time I started a new campaign I pitched three choices to my group about 6 weeks before our current campaign was due to end. That way I didn't waste time prepping an adventure people didn't want to play. I summarized the adventure, told them which pillars would be emphasized, what the characters' goals will be, how lethal or tactical the game would be. In essence, "This campaign should be fun for players who like to..." Pitch the game first, then present the character creation rules at the end. Once they've bought into your campaign proposal, they should be more open to character restrictions.

If you want to restrict choices the group is used to having, I think it helps to keep the initial commitment short (for us, 2 months would be short). "Try playing it this way for an adventure that might take 6-8 sessions. If you like it we'll continue, and if you don't we can revisit the rules or switch to playing something else." We have several people willing to DM so if people aren't motivated to play in the campaign I want to run, I'm happy to play in someone else's.
 

Am I missing something?

What on earth is 'cheesy' or 'OP' about a Hexblade/ Paladin?

Eldritch Smite + Paladin Smite requires 5 levels of Warlock to pull off (plus a minimum of 2 levels of Paladin). And even at 7th level, a Warlock/ Paladin can 'dual smite' using both 3rd level slots for an extra 8d8 damage on a single attack, precisely once per short rest.

What am I missing?
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Am I missing something?

What on earth is 'cheesy' or 'OP' about a Hexblade/ Paladin?

Eldritch Smite + Paladin Smite requires 5 levels of Warlock to pull off (plus a minimum of 2 levels of Paladin). And even at 7th level, a Warlock/ Paladin can 'dual smite' using both 3rd level slots for an extra 8d8 damage on a single attack, precisely once per short rest.

What am I missing?

Charisma to hit, damage, saves, DCs and good at ranged combat as well via eldirch blast. Not bad for 1-2 levels dip.

Due to Eldritch blast you don't even give up multiple barracks level 5 with a 2/3 split.
 

Charisma to hit, damage, saves, DCs and good at ranged combat as well via eldirch blast. Not bad for 1-2 levels dip.

Due to Eldritch blast you don't even give up multiple barracks level 5 with a 2/3 split.

Charisma to hit with a 1H melee weapon unless its a 3 level Dip. Hardly ZOMG BROKEN.

And you do give up multiple attacks in melee. He can hang back and 'pew pew' with 2 x Eldritch blasts per round I guess as a Hexblade 2/ Paladin 3 as good as he could as a single classed Warlock (sort of - Hex has a lower duration) but then... what are the Paladin levels for exactly? what is he getting out of them?

If he had have stuck with Warlock he'd be tossing out 3rd level slots AND have eldritch Smite, AND have thirsting blade AND have an ASI and his Hex spell lasts for 8 hours instead of needing to be recast after every short rest.

I mean seriously. Stat me out a Warlock 2/ Paladin 3 and I'll happily do the same with a straight Paladin 5 and we can compare the two.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Charisma to hit with a 1H melee weapon unless its a 3 level Dip. Hardly ZOMG BROKEN.

And you do give up multiple attacks in melee. He can hang back and 'pew pew' with 2 x Eldritch blasts per round I guess as a Hexblade 2/ Paladin 3 as good as he could as a single classed Warlock (sort of - Hex has a lower duration) but then... what are the Paladin levels for exactly? what is he getting out of them?

If he had have stuck with Warlock he'd be tossing out 3rd level slots AND have eldritch Smite, AND have thirsting blade AND have an ASI and his Hex spell lasts for 8 hours instead of needing to be recast after every short rest.

I mean seriously. Stat me out a Warlock 2/ Paladin 3 and I'll happily do the same with a straight Paladin 5 and we can compare the two.

You can also use gfb and hex to keep up melee damage.

It's more level 6-8 when things come togather. Opportunity cost is really on level 5 and 6.

He's also benefitted from knowledge from other players. I've got an underwater city location planned later on with Triton Spellcasters.

A hexblade/green paladin triton kinda dumps all over that.

Above the water I kind of based it on pirate games where you have Spain/Dutch/England/France except I'm using Elves/Humans/Dragonborn/ Warforged.

I'm not a fan of aquatic and flying races or any other race that negated themes if the campaign eg Warforged on Darksun even if they're made out of not metal.
 
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You can also use gfb and hex to keep up melee damage.

It's more level 6-8 when things come together. Opportunity cost is really on level 5 and 6.

Even when it 'comes together' at mid T2 (after sucking in late T1) it is in no way broken or optimal.

Lets assume Hexblade 2, Paladin 6. As opposed to a straight Paladin 8 he's down 1 ASI (making up for the Cha SAD), in exchange for 2 recharging 1st level spell slots, gains a Hexblades curse 1/ short rest, and has a slightly better ranged attack with EB (which is clutch anyway, because as Paladin he wants to be in melee as much as possible), and is locked into 1H melee weapons for melee (not exactly optimal).

He's also 2 whole levels away from Improved Divine Smite (and higher level spells).
 

The utility of the paladin/warlock multiclass build is a bit dependent on the situation, from my (purely theoretical) read of it. The big question is the sort of 'adventuring day' you're expecting to have. Straight-up paladins are dependent on smite for a lot of their damage output (until GWM comes along, of course, but even somewhat after that), but in a dungeon situation where you expect encounter after encounter after encounter in a single day you can run out of daily spell slots in a hurry (especially if you're also using them on bless, protection from evil, shield of faith or whatever buff you prefer). Being able to regain a couple of slots after a short rest is really handy, and if you bias your multiclass towards warlock, they're generally going to be high-level slots (and if you have a rod of the pact keeper, you can get one of those slots back without resting at all). On the other hand, if your day only includes a single long epic drag-out combat, then the straight-up paladin probably has the advantage, because it'll have more total spell slots to spend - not just for smiting, but a single-class paladin can probably afford to re-cast a buff spell that expired or was lost though a failed concentration check, whereas a multiclass paladin/warlock might not have the spell slots available.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Even when it 'comes together' at mid T2 (after sucking in late T1) it is in no way broken or optimal.

Lets assume Hexblade 2, Paladin 6. As opposed to a straight Paladin 8 he's down 1 ASI (making up for the Cha SAD), in exchange for 2 recharging 1st level spell slots, gains a Hexblades curse 1/ short rest, and has a slightly better ranged attack with EB (which is clutch anyway, because as Paladin he wants to be in melee as much as possible), and is locked into 1H melee weapons for melee (not exactly optimal).

He's also 2 whole levels away from Improved Divine Smite (and higher level spells).

High rolled stats and racial +2. Looking at 18 or 20 charisma right out the gate.

Being behind in an ASI not such a big deal.

I'm just not a big fan of hexblade or Tritons. And I've put effort into major races and world building so prefer they focus on that.

Probably do a different theme next time, I bet he won't want a Triton then.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
High rolled stats and racial +2. Looking at 18 or 20 charisma right out the gate.

Being behind in an ASI not such a big deal.

I'm just not a big fan of hexblade or Tritons. And I've put effort into major races and world building so prefer they focus on that.

Probably do a different theme next time, I bet he won't want a Triton then.

Well, you could promise him that next time he can be a triton. And, just to throw him a bone, have the campaign be one where being a triton is useful from time to time - river travels, ruin on a island, that kind of stuff.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Well, you could promise him that next time he can be a triton. And, just to throw him a bone, have the campaign be one where being a triton is useful from time to time - river travels, ruin on a island, that kind of stuff.

Yeah, I suspect that's not the problem.

Anyway based on feedback I said he can hexblade but not allowed to MC it, plan B no Hexblade.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
Anyway based on feedback I said he can hexblade but not allowed to MC it, plan B no Hexblade.
Unless you rule out all MCing, that is harsh IMO. The combo is not that horrible that it needs to be singled out in such a manner. It would make more sense if for some reason the race was not available as a PC, but not a MC combination. :(

But, ultimately, the DM rules and I would have to decide as a player if I wanted to join such a game. 🤷‍♂️ If the player complies and accepts it, kudos for you. :)
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Unless you rule out all MCing, that is harsh IMO. The combo is not that horrible that it needs to be singled out in such a manner. It would make more sense if for some reason the race was not available as a PC, but not a MC combination. :(

But, ultimately, the DM rules and I would have to decide as a player if I wanted to join such a game. 🤷‍♂️ If the player complies and accepts it, kudos for you. :)

Well I'll make it simple no Hexblade allowed, MC whatever you like.

Themed game, new gamer to the party. Get with the program or find another game it's very simple.

I've got one MC character but she was there session 0.
 
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DND_Reborn

Legend
Well I'll make it simple no Hexblade allowed, MC whatever you like.

Themed game, new gamer to the party. Get with the program or find another game it's very simple.

I've got one MC character but she was their session 0.
LOL, yeah, I would just leave with you taking that attitude, but whatever... you do you. Either way, enjoy your game--it's your table. :)
 




Zardnaar

Legend
There might be plenty of players where you live, but not around here. 🤷‍♂️ ;)

Last week we had 30 turn up at the gamestore.

Always people looking for games on our Facebook groups.

I think a few of the other groups are semi private. By that they only play with friends not randoms.
 


Well I'll make it simple no Hexblade allowed, MC whatever you like.

Themed game, new gamer to the party. Get with the program or find another game it's very simple.

You're running an aquatic campaign and he wants to be a Triton.

Im not seeing how he's not 'getting with the program' here.

Even if the Tritons are the bad guys, that's no different to a PC wanting to play a good Drow in an Underdark campaign. It's rife with roleplaying opportunities.
 

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