Paladins at dinner parties: Polite or Truthful?
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Jeremy Ackerman-Yost
Explorer
Quality paladin quotes, Celebrim. 
I rank politeness a bit lower than honesty, personally, so that those with somewhat less wit can still be paladins if someone decides to really press an issue.
And truly, despicably, beyond hope of redemption Evil people lose the right to courtesy, IMO.
Eeeeevil guy: "But Sir Bob, you are not eating! Is the food not to your liking?"
Bob the Paladin: "The food is no less palatable than the company."
Eeeeevil guy: "I see. ::simmers:: I thought your were the ever-courteous knight, was I mis-informed?"
Bob the Paladin: "Nay, my lord, I have oft been called so. But Courtesy is a virtue that fails me in this instance, as your presence does so befoul the air with vileness that, for fear of its effects, I would not prolong our discourse with the niceties of polite conversation."
I rank politeness a bit lower than honesty, personally, so that those with somewhat less wit can still be paladins if someone decides to really press an issue.
And truly, despicably, beyond hope of redemption Evil people lose the right to courtesy, IMO.
Eeeeevil guy: "But Sir Bob, you are not eating! Is the food not to your liking?"
Bob the Paladin: "The food is no less palatable than the company."
Eeeeevil guy: "I see. ::simmers:: I thought your were the ever-courteous knight, was I mis-informed?"
Bob the Paladin: "Nay, my lord, I have oft been called so. But Courtesy is a virtue that fails me in this instance, as your presence does so befoul the air with vileness that, for fear of its effects, I would not prolong our discourse with the niceties of polite conversation."
It depends on the nature of the lie and how it is socially sanctioned. Lawful people would, for instance, be likely to conduct themselves by the rules of social interaction. Pick up a copy of Emily Post or Miss Manners and check out all the instances in which one is told to lie as a simple matter of good manners.
If, for some reason, a Paladin adopts a code that actually prohibits lying, deflection seems the way to go. Certainly, one could play a beligerent or sanctimonious Paladin but this seems in no way required.
If, for some reason, a Paladin adopts a code that actually prohibits lying, deflection seems the way to go. Certainly, one could play a beligerent or sanctimonious Paladin but this seems in no way required.
I find it hard to believe that a fib about the quality of dinner can constitute evil behavior. In order to have moral quality, and act must have meaningful reprecussions. In the usual dinner party, nobody will even notice the statement - it is merely a required formality, like washing up in the finger bowl.
There are, of course, always extremes one can construct.
In fact, if the situation is really tense, the Paladin can be compelled to lie for purposes of good. Say the host is insane, and will slay the paladin if he does not compliment the food. Allowing a great force for Good to be destroyed over a minor point of etiquette constitutes an evil act, so the Paladin must lie to save his life. Failing to lie would be evil in this case.
Putting a paladin into a "Kobyashi Maru", no-win scenario over his paladin status is unfair. It's akin to a death trap with no save. If you don't allow any outs, of course he loses his paladin status! What would be the point of the test? Paladins should only lose status over things they can actually control, when they make a bad choice when a good one was available. IMHO.
There are, of course, always extremes one can construct.
In fact, if the situation is really tense, the Paladin can be compelled to lie for purposes of good. Say the host is insane, and will slay the paladin if he does not compliment the food. Allowing a great force for Good to be destroyed over a minor point of etiquette constitutes an evil act, so the Paladin must lie to save his life. Failing to lie would be evil in this case.
Putting a paladin into a "Kobyashi Maru", no-win scenario over his paladin status is unfair. It's akin to a death trap with no save. If you don't allow any outs, of course he loses his paladin status! What would be the point of the test? Paladins should only lose status over things they can actually control, when they make a bad choice when a good one was available. IMHO.
Wicht
Hero
fusangite said:
I used to read Miss manners (though its been years) and I don't remember her ever advising one to lie. Perhaps I should go back and find her book again.
IMO lying for the sake of social flattery merely demonstrates a certain weaseling quality. You are demonstrating that you will say anything to get/stay on the good side of whomever you are trying impress at the moment. Learning to tell the truth in a tactful manner is IMO a much more useful social skill and makes you a much more useful freind to have.
Jeremy Ackerman-Yost
Explorer
I just feel that Truth is a much greater moral imperative than politeness, and though a paladin will serve both to the best of hs ability, if one crashes headlong into the other, he should come out on the side of Truth.
Of course, that doesn't prevent him from witty misdirection, deliberate vagueness, avoidance, etc. as Celebrim pointed out. But an outright lie, even a little one, violates his oath.
He's a paladin the epitome of goodness, justice, and forthrightness. Lying of any kind should be anathema.
Of course, that doesn't prevent him from witty misdirection, deliberate vagueness, avoidance, etc. as Celebrim pointed out. But an outright lie, even a little one, violates his oath.
He's a paladin the epitome of goodness, justice, and forthrightness. Lying of any kind should be anathema.
You guys are taking the definition of a paladin much more strictly than I am. If you consider many of the knights who went on the crusades as paladins, then you've got a whole different story there. Anyhow, by your strict definitions, only Joan of Arc and maybe a few MYTHICAL figures like Sir Galahad would be paladins. Hey, even King Arthur and Sir Lancelot did some bad stuff (infidelity, etc). Were they stripped of their knighthood? Nope.
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