Paladins at dinner parties: Polite or Truthful?

Sir Edgar said:
You guys are taking the definition of a paladin much more strictly than I am. If you consider many of the knights who went on the crusades as paladins, then you've got a whole different story there. Anyhow, by your strict definitions, only Joan of Arc and maybe a few MYTHICAL figures like Sir Galahad would be paladins. Hey, even King Arthur and Sir Lancelot did some bad stuff (infidelity, etc). Were they stripped of their knighthood? Nope.
Lancelot kept his knighthood, but lost his invincibility on several occasions, gaining it back after regaining humility and swearing off Guinevere. Sounds like he lost his paladinhood and regained it to me. 'Course, he lost it again since Guinevere wouldn't take "chaste" for an answer and pushed the issue until he gave in.

And Arthur knowingly committed very few evil acts. In some versions of the story he didn't knowingly commit ANY.

Besides, in a fantasy world where the gods are walking around empowering people, "with great power comes great responsibility" should be a factor MORE often than it is in game, IMO.
 

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Sir Edgar said:
You guys are taking the definition of a paladin much more strictly than I am.

I think you are confusing paladins with ordinary knights.

Paladins are the purest of the pure and the goodest of the good. They are able to perform miracles and fight evil because of their pure hearts and noble souls.

Other knights are simply warriors who may or may not hold to some standard of virtue.
 

Okay, so can you give me a list of real life paladins besides Joan of Arc, according to the strictest of definitions? I suspect it will be a short one.
 


If a paladin cannot lie, does that mean they cannot, for instance, travel in disguise. Disguise is after all a false representation of who you are. However I think you would have a hardtime saying disguising yourself is an evil act. I don't think it really qualifies as being unlawful either (short of hiding from the authorities).




Since this really boils down to the honor of a Paladin, I thought I might throw out some other takes on honor. (Note: This is really just food for thought, I'm not trying to argue anything with this.)


Here are a couple of excerpt from the Legend of Five Rings book.

From the section on Bushido

Sincerity
You own every word you speak. - The Tao of Shinsei

Sincerity does not mean honesty; sincerity is the ability to appear honest. A samurai is expected to lie to protect his family's honor. that is why in court, the testimony of family members is not considered valid. A man or woman who can cry on command has a valuable skill in Rokugan. The ability to appear sincere while apologizing is highly regarded. Rokugani are more concerned with saying what people want to hear than telling the truth. To tell the truth brings embarrassment to all parties involved, and is therefore dishonorable.
On the other hand, a samurai's word is always good. If a samurai says he will do something, he will do it, or he will die trying.


From the section on Etiquette

Perception and Truth

It's been mentioned before, but no amount of emphasis can be placed on the difference between perception and reality.
To be honost in Rokugan is to be rude. All that matters is perception, not truth. If a samurai is a drunken, gambling, womanizing wretch, the court doesn't care, as long as he's discreet about it. To point out another's weakness embarrasses them and you, thus bringing shame to his family and your own. The same can be said of faith and bushido. If a samurai presents himself as a pious man trying to burn away his worldly concerns, the courd considers him honorable. The truth is often spoken of in gossip circles, but then it is regarded for what it is: harmless gossip, and it gets ignored.
The Clans are concerned with results. A samurai who wins battles and brings his family glory is hailed for his greatness. A samurai who does not shaves his head while he is young so he will not bring further shame to his family.
Once again, everyone in Rokugan knows that many samurai are wretched, spoiled brats who need to be taught a lesson in humility, but in order to save face, they say nothing. It is the clever samurai who is able to humble brutish samurai without causing his family a loss of face that is hailed above all others.


Once again, I say this is just some food for though, honor is an elusive word.
 



Oni said:
honor is an elusive word.

Honor is what a person makes of it.

Honesty however is a pretty concrete idea.

I would think a Paladin could disguise himself in certain circumstances, but if he was to be honest he could not lie about who he was if pressed.

For instance -
A knight in black armor holds the bridge. His face is unseen. But he is clearly a man of honor. He is no villain. But he will not back down to the heroes
The knight fighting him demands - "Who are you?"
The other answers, "I cannot tell you."
"Tell me the truth, are you not Sir Truthsblood, your skill with the sword gives you away!"
"I am found out. It is even as you say. But still I cannot let you pass for I am honor bound to hold this bridge against all. Turn back so I will not be force to injure you further!"
 

Does Bill Gates count or is he more of a rogue
The Onion aside... Pretty sure he's a rogue. ;)

Oni- I guess it depends on the character and the game. A Western-styled paladin, a cavalier, and a samurai will all have very different codes of honor, of course. As long as he keeps to his definition of honor and that of his society, he's probably OK.
 
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This kind of strict definition of a paladin, I imagine, would make it really not fun to play such a class.

Basically, you're saying a paladin should be like superman (boring!) or the pope (snooze). So, in the end, a character like this would just be there to hack-n-slash and at the same time stick out as a liability to the entire party in case they want to make any stealth maneuvers or whatnot. There's too little flexibility there! I can't imagine anyone wanting to play a paladin under those circumstances.

I'd like to hear from the people who actually play paladins.
 

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