Paladins at dinner parties: Polite or Truthful?

[Sir Edgar]

The Onion aside... Pretty sure he's a rogue.

Oni- I guess it depends on the character and the game. A Western-styled paladin, a cavalier, and a samurai will all have very different codes of honor, of course. As long as he keeps to his definition of honor and that of his society, he's probably OK.

That's something along the lines I'm thinking of, too, actually. As long as he thinks he's doing good, then it's good. But if the gods think otherwise, well...

As for Bill Gates his stats make him out to be more of a wizard/sorcerer combo if that's possible:

Str 13
Dex 18
Con 15
Int 20
Wis 18
Cha 20

According to The Onion, he can summon demons but he also carries a longbow, so maybe he's got a class of rogue in there.

 

[Wicht]

This kind of strict definition of a paladin, I imagine, would make it really not fun to play such a class.

Why?

I am not sure why it would not be fun to try and play a character who tries to make the right choice everytime and lives by a strict code of conduct. I would play a paladin as soon as I would play a rogue, but then I am always the DM.

As to Paladins vs. stealth characters, I would think that would make for interesting in party interactions.

To make it even worse, in my campaign at least two of the characters feel it is beneath them to use or rely on missile weapons of any sort. With them it is a religious conviction. One is a paladin and one is a cleric. IMO it is more challenging (and therefore more fun) to figure your way around obstacles while still sticking to your principles 100%.

 

[Wicht]

As long as he thinks he's doing good, then it's good.

Philisophically I am a moral absolutist, so I would have to disagree. No matter the culture, there are certain things I would argue are always evil. But I am not sure we want to move this from etiquette and honesty to an alignment discussion.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

That's something along the lines I'm thinking of, too, actually. As long as he thinks he's doing good, then it's good. But if the gods think otherwise, well...

Whoa, didn't mean to imply any moral relativism there. If there's one thing paladins ain't it's morally relative.

Not every disturbed person who comes to the conclusion that he's a saint becomes a paladin.

Perhaps I should have stressed the society part of it. If we assume that the societal definition of honor has something to do with their god's (reasonable assumption in a world where the gods actually wander around and actively express their approval and disapproval) then keeping to the societal code of honor would maintain his standing quite well.

I was allowing for slight variation in how a god and society perceive Lawful Good, not a complete redefinition.

 

[Sir Edgar]

Philisophically I am a moral absolutist, so I would have to disagree. No matter the culture, there are certain things I would argue are always evil. But I am not sure we want to move this from etiquette and honesty to an alignment discussion.

Who determines the moral guidelines? If you're the DM then fine you can, but you also have to understand that things considered evil by many people before are now considered evil by only a few now (red heads, divorce, homosexuality, Republicans, etc). It is up to the gods to decide whether a paladin loses his powers. He who giveth, taketh away, too. Unless you have a list of commandments for a paladin outlined before he/she plays, this will be always be a difficult interpretation issue.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Who determines the moral guidelines? If you're the DM then fine you can, ...
... Unless you have a list of commandments for a paladin outlined before he/she plays, this will be always be a difficult interpretation issue.

That's why I've rarely had the opportunity to play paladins. The DMs I've dealt with seem to think it's their job to strip paladins of their powers whenever the slightest inkling of a possible infraction might have floated through the mind of someone on the same continent as my character.

 

[Wicht]

Who determines the moral guidelines?

Well I am a Christian, so in my opinion, God does in real life. I am perfectly aware not everyone shares this philosophy but it works for me.

If you're the DM then fine you can, but you also have to understand that things considered evil by many people before are now considered evil by only a few now (red heads, divorce, homosexuality, Republicans, etc). It is up to the gods to decide whether a paladin loses his powers. He who giveth, taketh away, too. Unless you have a list of commandments for a paladin outlined before he/she plays, this will be always be a difficult interpretation issue.

In game, I am the DM so I can, as you say determine the moral guidelines. And if a player playing a Paladin is about to do something his character would know ,in character, was a violation of his oath, I will tell him out of character.

By the by I am a Republican too so I am glad we are not considered evil anymore

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

By the by I am a Republican too so I am glad we are not considered evil anymore

Go to a college town. You'll be considered evil there. I'm a conservative independent (which, I'm told, isn't nearly as bad as a Republican ), and I'm practically a pariah in some circles because of it.

The Republicans are occasionally publicly stoned (as in hit with rocks), which I think illustrates the complete lack of difference between self-righteous conservatives and self-righteous liberals.

edited for clarity

 

[Oni]

Honor is what a person makes of it.

Honesty however is a pretty concrete idea.

This is true, but honesty isn't always necessarily part of a code of honor. Not everyone necessarily has the same code, and different codes can be equally valid.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Hmmm, if we look at the 12 paladins of Charlmagne it becomes apparent that the 'no lying, no cussing, no nothing' paladin is a more recent convention. After all Roland went completly off his rocker for a rather extended period of time, killing a good many innocent people....

There is a closer paladin equivelant in Russian folklore - complete with magically appearing horse, but I am not remembering his name.

And for rules lawyers, Defenders of the Faith addresses the issue, at least a little, on page 9.

And, in my arrogant opinion, Galahad is a better example of paladin than Lancelot. (Who was added to the whole mess by a Frenchman a goodly time after the bulk of the cycle was complete.)

The Auld Grump, sticking his spoon in...