Paladins in 3.5, why?

[Corinth]

This is fun!

(snip)

Then they get to repent or die, and the paladin's off the hook because he's executing his holy mandate. If you don't serve evil, assume an evil state or commit yourself to evil then you don't detect as evil; if you do, then you're fair game to a paladin.

 

[Sejs]

Kevmann - intentionally or not, you're dancing on the line of insulting everyone that doesn't agree with you. Don't get too worked up. Just realize that there are going to be people who do not agree with your view of how paladins are to be run.


There are no imperatives in this situation - only oppinions.

 

[Kevmann10583]

Sejs, that is just what I am saying, I understand that there are so many interpritations and that no one person can be truly "right" But that is not our fault, that is the problem of Wizards of the Coast. They did not describe the paladin and his code in even close to enough description...

And you don't even find out untill you read the atonement spell that if a paladen unwillingly or unwittingly does evil they lose their powers.

BUT, I here in 3.5 they are giving more description to everything, perhaps they will describe the intracacies of being a paladin and put our argument to rest.

But on that same note, I think we have gotten away from whether they should be core or prc. I opened the poll to see whether people prefered it core or prc, and more then 1/3 said they would like to see it prc. But it seems the majority want it to remain a core class, and the majority do not want its restrictions to be widened.

But that still beggs the question of exactly WHY the paladin should be a core or prc, and I still think that no side has been able to accruatly and infalably defend their side.

Is this something we will have to agree to disagree on, and justlet majority rule? But minorities should be accounted for too, since more then 1/3 belive it should be prc. Is there a solution to this? Is there a way to please both sides?

I kind of think, since the majority want it, the paladin should be left as a core class (beyond my better judgement), but that they should at least put the varient prc in the varient section of the DMG.

 

[RigaMortus]

I wouldn't be opposed to having the Paladin as a PrC. But I'd want a PrC for every "holy warrior" or "champion" for each alignment and deity. LG would be a Paladin, NG some other class, CG would be the Holy Liberator, LN something else, and so on, all the way up the alignment scale. Then you have to also incorporate deities into that as well.

The other thing is, using your arguement, wouldn't Specialist Wizards have to be PrCs as well?

 

[Kevmann10583]

Sure, why not?

The person could of course specialize in the chosen field like a normal wizard.

But I would like to se a prc for every school specialization, with the requirement that that wizard specializes in said school when he took the wizard class.

 

[reapersaurus]

Kevmann - I respectfully suggest that you spend a bit more time on these boards, absorbing other people's approaches towards paladins before becoming too enamored and intractable in your opinions.

I see you have a mere handful of posts, and have only joined in July.

These boards have had insightful, and far-ranging Paladin threads for YEARS which have discussed everything you can possibly bring up.

I thought it was funny when SHARK posted - he is well-known as passionate about Paladins, and your personal restrictions about a paladin, and lying, would be laughably suicidal in his world.

Basically, don't get in such an uproar, take a while to lurk on the boards, and read and contribute to the various paladin threads when they come by, as they have and inevitably will:

You will NOT reach this fictitious "concensus" you're striving for, or have anyone "infallibly" defend their approach.

As someone who has been passionate about paldins for years, I can relate to you that there is no such thing as a "code" that will bottle up and package this mythological "archetypical paladin" for you.

3.5 will NOT do this for you either, I guarantee.
There can never be a set of laws or rules that will help a player who doesn't 'get' paladins to make it so they won't mess them up.

If the player 'gets' the sacrifices and unselfishness of a paladin, than they can play one without a code.

If the player is CN, and only understands a selfish, get-what-you-can mentality, he will likely mess up his paladin character regardless of a code, even if it was 1400 rules long, that tried to cover every eventuality he could ever face.

To sum up:
Paladins are about the spirit, not the letter of the law.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Originally posted by Corinth
If you don't serve evil, assume an evil state or commit yourself to evil then you don't detect as evil; if you do, then you're fair game to a paladin.

I strongly disagree.

Someone can have an evil alignment without being EVIL.

Pettiness, spite, greed, jealousy, arrogance, viciousness, and a tendency to kick kittens could all be considered evil traits.

In the average person, there are redeeming qualities like love, charity, conscience, mercy, and so forth that balance those evil traits. But in a person with few to none of the "good" qualities, and several of the "evil" qualities, his alignment will tend towards evil, even though he isn't EVIL.

If someone is miserly, fantasises about orchestrating some emergency requiring his brother to leave town in order to sleep with his wife (although never actually puts any of his plans into practice), and has been known to kick the occasional servant who doesn't call him 'Sir' fast enough, in my opinion he will register on a Detect Evil spell. He is a creature of evil alignment - he will show up as "faint" evil if 5th level or less, "moderate" evil otherwise.

Do you really think his transgressions are a license to pull out the Holy Avenger?

What happened to mercy? Where's the belief in the chance for redemption?

Mindless slaughter on the basis of alignment rather than actions is not Lawful, and it's not Good.

-Hyp.

 

[Corinth]

I strongly disagree.

Someone can have an evil alignment without being EVIL.

There is no difference.

Pettiness, spite, greed, jealousy, arrogance, viciousness, and a tendency to kick kittens could all be considered evil traits.

In the average person, there are redeeming qualities like love, charity, conscience, mercy, and so forth that balance those evil traits. But in a person with few to none of the "good" qualities, and several of the "evil" qualities, his alignment will tend towards evil, even though he isn't EVIL.

And if that person turns up positive when scanned with a detect evil spell, then--barring any interference that would produce a false positive--he's evil and that's the end of it. Evil is evil.

If someone is miserly, fantasises about orchestrating some emergency requiring his brother to leave town in order to sleep with his wife (although never actually puts any of his plans into practice), and has been known to kick the occasional servant who doesn't call him 'Sir' fast enough, in my opinion he will register on a Detect Evil spell. He is a creature of evil alignment - he will show up as "faint" evil if 5th level or less, "moderate" evil otherwise.

Should that occur, then the paladin is well within his mandate from God (or whatever power he serves) to do what he will with the poor sod.

Do you really think his transgressions are a license to pull out the Holy Avenger?

Yes, they are. Evil is evil, and paladins exist to destroy evil. There is no compromise, no retreat, no surrender and no mercy when doing battle against evil. The best that the poor sod can do is sincerely repent of his evil and change his alignment away from evil. This is why paladins--and other such warrior-servants of good--are so terrifying.

What happened to mercy? Where's the belief in the chance for redemption?

Mercy is something that one must ask for, not to assume shall be granted. Paladins are warriors charged by God (etc.) to go forth and slay all that is evil; they are his Righteous Wrath personified in mortal flesh, so mercy is a secondary concern to purifying the world of evil. If a paladin's foe asks for mercy, then the paladin may grant it; this isn't likely, so it's not a major concern. Let the clerics worry about it.

Mindless slaughter on the basis of alignment rather than actions is not Lawful, and it's not Good.

Evil is evil, be it by nature or by free will, so it matters not to the paladin why this is so; it matters only that it is destroyed. There is no divine punishment for a paladin that faithfully executes his holy mandate. There may be temporal retribution, but that's the misguided actions of mortals and their law is inferior to that of a paladin's god.

Paladins, when played properly, are as angels made flesh. They are terrifying incarnations of the glory of their patron gods, much like angels, and it is to those gods--and no other authority--that they must answer. Damned be those that stand in their way, for they stand between a servant of the Lords of Good and their holy duty to purify the world of all evil. That's more horrific than any evil being that ever existed, because not only are they that great in power but they're also always right about it as well.

 

[Kevmann10583]

Thank you Hypersmurf, I completly agree!

 

[Hypersmurf]

Evil is evil, be it by nature or by free will, so it matters not to the paladin why this is so; it matters only that it is destroyed.

Paladins, when played properly, are as angels made flesh. That's more horrific than any evil being that ever existed, because not only are they that great in power but they're also always right about it as well.

Ick.

I cannot conceive of a world where, if Paladins acted like that, they would not be hunted down and exterminated.

Thought Police with a license to dispense death.

That's not a Paladin.

-Hyp.