D&D 5E Paladins in SCAG are all good-aligned?

[bganon]

This is getting a bit off-topic, but I can't help myself...

I agree that the Sith code is CE, but I always saw Anakin as a classic example of LE. He really believes in order and rules, but he's just too selfish and can't stand not being the one making the rules. Nevertheless, he's a Jedi for over a decade before a combination of loyalty to Palpatine and long-simmering frustration with Jedi inaction pushes him to the dark side. He abandoned his mother because the Jedi told him to. Once he falls, he commits fully to purging the Jedi seemingly because that's what Sith do (according to Palpatine, anyway) and he then maintains that allegiance for another twenty years. None of this seems to me like the behavior of someone who doesn't believe in order or rules. Not every action he takes is LE (but who acts 100% in line with their alignment), but even his betrayal of Lando is principled - he doesn't honor deals made with criminals or terrorists, which is something plenty of real-life lawful organizations adhere to.

Palpatine, on the other hand, I have always considered a fantastic example of how to play CE without being Chaotic Stupid. He manipulates the laws to his benefit and sets himself up at the head of an Empire, but he clearly doesn't believe in any of that. For him, laws/loyalty/oaths are just tools to exploit for personal power and discard when no longer useful. And he constantly foments conflict around him to set up win-win situations for himself - the whole plot of Phantom Menace, Order 66, Anakin vs Dooku, Luke vs Vader. Only the last one doesn't quite work out for him.

 

[dewderino]

But where is the balance? True neutrality Is something that I'd like to see introduced to the game on more than a home brew level. I feel like an angel of purge of the sorts would be a great addition. Something of the John Constantine sorts. Capacity to do great things, but constantly held back by one evil deed.

John Constantine would make a very interesting Paladin. Lives a life of self destruction and service without question. He appeals to both ce and lg. But because of his previous sins his good deeds go unnoticed.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I will never feel bad for disliking either Superman or Paladins. Disliking both at the same time is just icing on the cake.

Oh, not at all questioning your justification for dislike. You can dislike as strikes your fancy. I'd be a rectal sphincter (since I can't use the common term!) if I said otherwise. But "dislike" and "throwing around an offensive, politically-charged insult" are two distinct things, and I'd prefer you avoided doing the latter. You may or may not have any choice about what you like/dislike; you definitely have a choice about the words you use. (And while I very, very strongly believe in freedom of speech, the fact that nearly all opinions are legally protected does not make those opinions respectful or appropriate--though I fear I may be "getting a little too real" with that.)

While this is, admittedly, just my opinion, to which others might reasonably disagree, those who disagree are wrong and in the afterlife will be sentenced to watching the Star Wars Holiday Special on loop for eternity.*

*This may or may not be true, but do you really want to risk it?

Sure. I've already got plans for my eternity.

 

[Flamestrike]

HOWEVER it's worth noting that Gygax's own view of Lawful Evil was diabolical, with loads of treachery and betrayal.

There is a famous Quote from Gygax [that you reference] where he assers it's perfectly fine for LG Paladins to engage in brutal genocide of children.

No offence to Garry, but that's just his own moral compass. It's certainly not mine.

Later editions use Good much more to mean "What we IRL actually think of as Good", but that's not really what it means in 1e AD&D. In Gygaxian Alignment you can have Lawful Good Christian Knights vs
Lawful Good Muslim Dervishes, happily slaughtering each other without mercy - and this being not only in accordance with their Alignment but promoted by it!

Exactly. In Garys world the thing that seperates good and evil isnt the act (any act, no matter how vile is justified as 'good' as long as you perform it on an 'evil' being). Im not going to get into the serious flaws with Garys theories on alignment other than to say, he's wrong.

The Punisher is Lawful Evil. He engages in murder and torture to get what he wants (and for the greater good). He's similar to Batman, however the Bat doesnt engage in murder and torture, and tries to avoid killing where possible. The Batman is LG. Judge Dredd is LN (working for a LE dystopian fascist regime mind you).

 

[Flamestrike]

I agree that the Sith code is CE, but I always saw Anakin as a classic example of LE. He really believes in order and rules, but he's just too selfish and can't stand not being the one making the rules.

As a Jedi be never played by the rules and always broke them. He dressed his own way, acted how he felt best, and was far more likely to disobey an order than to follow it. In fact he was famous for being a loose cannon. He is consistently depicted as a lone wolf who basically flew around the galaxy doing his own thing. He married (in opposition to the Jedi code), he disobeyed every single order ever given to him, was impulsive and reckless. He was ordered to stay at the Jedi Temple when Mace confronted the Emperor - had he have followed that order, the Empire would never have been born. Even his own master couldnt controll him (We take him together - NO we take him now! or Turn the ship around! No Anakin, we have our orders or Stay with the Amidala on Naboo - instead flys to Tatooine etc etc). In the Clone wars series, not an epsiode goes by when he doesnt flat out ignore or directly contravene orders given to him by the Jedi order. He was in no way 'lawful'.

In the Clone Wars series is he clearly CG.

He followed the exact same pattern as a Sith working for the Empire. He constantly broke his promises, 'altered' every deal he made (pray I dont alter it any further), and betrayed the one person he was supposed to follow (the Emperor) by pegging him down a shaft. The Sith code has one rule (the Rule of two) and he even mamanged to break that by training a secret apprentice. He followed no rules barring obeying the Emperor (broadly) and he even offered to betray the Emperor at the first opportunity he got (Join me and together we can rule the glalaxy as father and son!)

In the OT he is clearly CE. He is an agent of discord and barring generally following the Emperor (largely out of the fact he dies if the Emperor does, and is bound to serve him) does his own thing. He acts as his anger, hatred and fear direct him.

Nevertheless, he's a Jedi for over a decade before a combination of loyalty to Palpatine and long-simmering frustration with Jedi inaction pushes him to the dark side. He abandoned his mother because the Jedi told him to. Once he falls, he commits fully to purging the Jedi seemingly because that's what Sith do (according to Palpatine, anyway) and he then maintains that allegiance for another twenty years. None of this seems to me like the behavior of someone who doesn't believe in order or rules. Not every action he takes is LE (but who acts 100% in line with their alignment), but even his betrayal of Lando is principled - he doesn't honor deals made with criminals or terrorists, which is something plenty of real-life lawful organizations adhere to.

Thats no more 'lawful' than a High priest of Cyric who is dedicated to wiping out Good aligned faiths and is faithful to his deity is 'lawful'. The Empire is a LE government. Its principle agent however is clearly CE. Heck; he even betrays the Empire and Emperor at the end.

Can you name me one person close to him, or one orginisation he worked for that he didnt betray and/ or destroy? His wife, his daughter, his son, his master (both of them), the Jedi, the Sith, Lando Calrissian, the Empire, innumerable Imperial officers, the Republic; everyone.

Palpatine, on the other hand, I have always considered a fantastic example of how to play CE without being Chaotic Stupid. He manipulates the laws to his benefit and sets himself up at the head of an Empire, but he clearly doesn't believe in any of that. For him, laws/loyalty/oaths are just tools to exploit for personal power and discard when no longer useful. And he constantly foments conflict around him to set up win-win situations for himself - the whole plot of Phantom Menace, Order 66, Anakin vs Dooku, Luke vs Vader. Only the last one doesn't quite work out for him.

The Sith order is a good example of a CE order. Its principles are broadly 'Do whatever your hate, anger and rage tell you to do. Dont hold back. Once you are strong enough, take what you want, including killing your own master once you are capable.'

 

[GreenTengu]

Can you name me one person close to him, or one orginisation he worked for that he didnt betray and/ or destroy? His wife, his daughter, his son, his master (both of them), the Jedi, the Sith, Lando Calrissian, the Empire, innumerable Imperial officers, the Republic; everyone.

Wilhuff Tarkin, Captain Rex, JarJar Binks and Ahsoka Tano

Plus, pretty much every betrayal you list is a case where two different people he owed allegience to were in conflict and regardless which he chose, it would be a betrayal. Both his betrayal of the Republic and the Empire stemmed from him having a higher loyalty to his family than anyone else.

His wife was harmed when he lashed out in anger, but pretty much the worst things he did were for her benefit. He never really betrayed his daughter because he was utterly unaware of his relationship with her so had no opportunity to do so and he did everything he could to benefit his son once he realized who he was.

 

[Desh-Rae-Halra]

I love that 5th Edition kept the No alignment restriction for the Paladin. It seems to me that if all Paladins have to be Lawful good, then no Chaotic Good gods could ever have Paladins (if you go by the 2 steps that Clerics have typically had to be within; Example: A LG Diety would have LN and NG Clerics).

It makes sense to me that other Gods would attract similarly aligned Paladins:
Tempus, God of War is True Neutral. If Paladins were only Lawful Good, then NONE would serve Tempus

Why shouldn't Tymora or Selune have their own Paladins? Or jumping out of FR, Corellon Larethian (CG) should have Paladins (specifically Elven ones), but if there was a LG restriction, it seems confusing to Lawfully follow a Chaotic Diety.

I'm happy with Oghma or Silvanus getting Paladins, as their Focus/Domain should suggest their duties/Oath.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

An example of a not good Paladin of Devotion is given in the SCAG. Under the Order of the guilded Eye and Helms Hold sections. Javen Tarmikos is a Paladin. But he is for sure not a good person. He is a main villain in the Sword Coast Legends game. He leads the massacre of an adventurer's guild because they might have something to do with Demons. He remarks that he has done and will continue to do terrible things, because it is needed to prevent fiends from gaining a foothold in the world.

 

[Celtavian]

This is just one of those annoying things they're trying to do in 5E. They're basically saying, "We're not going to put alignment restrictions on Paladins, but we sort of are in the fluff text...but not really." As far as I'm concerned paladins are holy warriors and can serve any deity good, neutral, or evil.

 

[abirdcall]

The perfect example of an Oath of Vengeance paladin in pop culture for me is Inigo Montoya.

Lawful Neutral.

He is willing to work for an evil man to pay the bills so he can keep his quest for vengeance going.

I wouldn't be surprised if the class was modelled on him.