Paladins mark "fix" a plazebo?

[Knightlord]

Ya know, I just have to ask: Why is this such a "bad" thing? It's not like it's a gamebreaker or anything. If you want to look at it in a positive light, you can see it's two players working together to achieve a common goal, and it only works against one creature at a time.

If you "don't" see a problem with it, then allow it to work in your game. If you "do" see it as a problem, then don't allow it in your game.

 

[D.Shaffer]

I'm really not seeing the exact problem here either.

Is it
A: That a Paladin can possibly act like a striker at all

or

B: that people are worried that it outdoes the Striker?

The former...why is this an issue? If it works, hey why not.
If the latter? I dont think we have enough real info on the Striker classes to judge yet.

 

[Mengu]

Let me start by saying, I don't think the range attacking paladin will be much of a problem, but the wording of the ability seems rather clunky to me. It could have been simpler without losing flavor or usefulness, while eliminating the temptation for the paladin to play chase around the battle field. I would have preferred something in the lines of:

Divine Challenge
At-Will Divine, Radiant
Minor Action (sustain free)
Target: One Adjacent Creature
Effect: Target is marked. If target creature makes an attack that does not include you during its turn it takes -2 to attack rolls, and suffers X damage. Divine challenge can be sustained as a free action, but expires if you do not end your turn adjacent to the target. You may only have one divine challenge at a time, and a creature may only be affected by one mark at a time (latest mark supersedes previous marks).

Without knowing the design philosophies, it's hard to say if this melee only ability would fit the design or not, but it would be simpler.

 

[Psikus]

I don't think that Divine Challenge, in its current form, is really broken. The Fighter-Paladin Challenge Lock is a powerful maneuver, but not that easy to sustain against enemies willing to shift, take attack from fighter, then move. Yes, I'd make sure my paladin always carries plenty of, say, throwing axes to try the trick. But I can think of many scenarios where staying in melee with the marked opponent and being able to flank, lay on hands, and actually use your at-will and encounter powers will be worth it.

What I'd never do, however, is cripple my PC by playing the Archer Paladin with no proficiencies, virtually no class powers, and just one class feature, just to get the combo running. Not when I can take a ranger and just give him this:

Soldier of the Faith Str 13, Cha 13 Paladin: skill training, divine challenge 1/encounter

Getting the trick on a character with actual ranged capabilities should be much, much better. You lose the ability to repeat the process in encounters with several enemies, but I find that acceptable. And if you get stunned or are otherwise unable to sustain the Challenge, you're screwed. At least you still have regular ranger damage.

Something that could be, if not broken, REALLY annoying, is a party where everybody (including, of course, a fighter) multiclassed to paladin. I'll have to playtest that, some day.


(I am aware that getting the Str and Cha for the paladin feat isn't exactly free, and that using the Challenge can interfere with other class features such as Hunter's Quarry. But it still beats the single class ranged paladin build, IMO)

 

[cdrcjsn]

So I tried this tactic...

So I was interested in this discussion and actually tried it last night with 4 players and a DM. One of each character role. I played the paladin archer in a Striker role.

I gave the halfling a shortbow (1d8). Lowered Str and hiked up Dex. If Divine Challenge damage happened, he was doing about the same amount as a Ranger would, though using mainly basic ranged attacks rather than at-will or encounter powers.

We ran two encounters, one in an open field and one inside a crypt-type dungeon.

The first combat took 4 rounds, and the Divine Challenge trick was able to be used to do damage in three of those rounds. It was 3 large bruisers without ranged attacks and one very mobile skirmisher.

The second combat took place the same day and lasted 11 rounds. Positioning was troublesome indoors and made it difficult to mark and run away. Several times during the fight, I recall not marking at all because I was bloodied and didn't want to draw attention away from the Defender. Divine Challenge damaged oppoents only 3 times during that 11 round fight. It was up for 7 of those rounds, but opponents were able to maneuver close to me for melee or had ranged attacks. The cramped quarters indoors definitely hurt the challenge and run tactic, since there was very little space to run to.

So my impression? It can be made to work. But I think having a party of four definitely limited my options. If we had a solid party of 5 with two defenders, then I can see the build doing as much damage as a real striker.

The downsides? Real Strikers have mobility options that a paladin simply does not, which makes indoor combats a lot tougher. Other players also had a negative view about not playing according to your supposed class role, despite the numbers saying that you're an adequate replacement (I kept track of average damage for this and previous combats that had a ranger or rogue striker).

 

[Kraydak]

So I was interested in this discussion and actually tried it last night with 4 players and a DM. One of each character role. I played the paladin archer in a Striker role.

I gave the halfling a shortbow (1d8). Lowered Str and hiked up Dex. If Divine Challenge damage happened, he was doing about the same amount as a Ranger would, though using mainly basic ranged attacks rather than at-will or encounter powers.

We ran two encounters, one in an open field and one inside a crypt-type dungeon.

The first combat took 4 rounds, and the Divine Challenge trick was able to be used to do damage in three of those rounds. It was 3 large bruisers without ranged attacks and one very mobile skirmisher.

The second combat took place the same day and lasted 11 rounds. Positioning was troublesome indoors and made it difficult to mark and run away. Several times during the fight, I recall not marking at all because I was bloodied and didn't want to draw attention away from the Defender. Divine Challenge damaged oppoents only 3 times during that 11 round fight. It was up for 7 of those rounds, but opponents were able to maneuver close to me for melee or had ranged attacks. The cramped quarters indoors definitely hurt the challenge and run tactic, since there was very little space to run to.

So my impression? It can be made to work. But I think having a party of four definitely limited my options. If we had a solid party of 5 with two defenders, then I can see the build doing as much damage as a real striker.

The downsides? Real Strikers have mobility options that a paladin simply does not, which makes indoor combats a lot tougher. Other players also had a negative view about not playing according to your supposed class role, despite the numbers saying that you're an adequate replacement (I kept track of average damage for this and previous combats that had a ranger or rogue striker).

(1) I agree that the striker-pally depends on a solid front line to do his damage. On the other hand, so do real strikers. Did you feel that the DM was trying harder to smack you down than he would have against a normal striker, all things considered? Of course, if the DM *really* hates the striker-pally, you have just found the ideal defender-pally build: meta-game aggro FTW!
(2) Thrown+Shield or (if possible, I kinda doubt it) Implement+Shield. If the opposition *really* wants to attack you with ranged weapons through the cover of the rest of the party, while you have a shield on, so be it. Further, if the part does get flanked, you are set-up for normal defender action where a real-striker would be running around trying not to die. Of course, our ability to reverse-engineer thrown weapons from the data is... not good.

 

[tomBitonti]

Let me start by saying, I don't think the range attacking paladin will be much of a problem, but the wording of the ability seems rather clunky to me. It could have been simpler without losing flavor or usefulness, while eliminating the temptation for the paladin to play chase around the battle field. I would have preferred something in the lines of:

Divine Challenge
At-Will Divine, Radiant
Minor Action (sustain free)
Target: One Adjacent Creature
Effect: Target is marked. If target creature makes an attack that does not include you during its turn it takes -2 to attack rolls, and suffers X damage. Divine challenge can be sustained as a free action, but expires if you do not end your turn adjacent to the target. You may only have one divine challenge at a time, and a creature may only be affected by one mark at a time (latest mark supersedes previous marks).

Without knowing the design philosophies, it's hard to say if this melee only ability would fit the design or not, but it would be simpler.

I like this rewrite!

Minor quibble ... what counts as adjacent? Can there be a closed door in between? What about a transparent wall of force? What if as a readied action (that interrupts your turn) the wizard turns you invisible (but you end up adjacent to the target). (Substitute any similar effects, such as going ethereal, or the 4E analogue.) Or, if you are a crazy warlock palading combo (don't know how) that puts on the mark then eyebite's you?

Also, what happens if you are bull rushed, forcibly shifted away from the mark outside of your turn? (Or if a sliding door closes between you and the marked outside of your turn?)

 

[Mort_Q]

Minor quibble ... what counts as adjacent? C

I'd assume that you require Line of Effect to do... anything.

 

[cdrcjsn]

(1) I agree that the striker-pally depends on a solid front line to do his damage. On the other hand, so do real strikers. Did you feel that the DM was trying harder to smack you down than he would have against a normal striker, all things considered? Of course, if the DM *really* hates the striker-pally, you have just found the ideal defender-pally build: meta-game aggro FTW!.

I wasn't being unduly focused on. It's just that in a limited space like a dungeon, there's less space to maneuver around in. If you're near a wall for example, and a bruiser moves adjacent to you, there's no where you can go to get clear to shoot unless you spend your entire action trying to set up for the following round. The situation would've been the same with a Rogue or Ranger, but those classes have abilities that allow them to better maneuver.

(2) Thrown+Shield or (if possible, I kinda doubt it) Implement+Shield. If the opposition *really* wants to attack you with ranged weapons through the cover of the rest of the party, while you have a shield on, so be it. Further, if the part does get flanked, you are set-up for normal defender action where a real-striker would be running around trying not to die. Of course, our ability to reverse-engineer thrown weapons from the data is... not

The only problem is that you don't want the opponents to attack you unless you are acting as a defender. If you're trying to emulate a striker, then you need that Divine Challenge to do damage, otherwise you are doing a lot less than a regular striker. So, yeah, you can take the hits. But if you cannot maneuver (i.e. in most dungeons), then the party lacks one Striker and gains one Defender.

 

[Delgar]

This is the actual text of the new divine challenge as seen in Keep on the Shadowfell:

Divine Challenge
At-Will Divine, Radiant
Minor Action Close burst 5
Target: One creature in burst
Effect: You mark the target. If the creature was already marked, your mark supersedes the previous one. The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or you fail to engage the target (see below). A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.
While a target is marked, it takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls and takes 6 radiant damage if it makes an attack doesn't include you as a target. The target takes this damage only once per turn. (me. Hmm. Looks like this would also affect OAs)
On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target. To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can't use Divine Challenge on your next turn.
You can use Divine Challenge once per turn.