Paladins mark "fix" a plazebo?

[WhatGravitas]

Hmmm... on the other hand: The "fix" allows the paladin to be a "ranged defender", i.e. allows him to draw fire from ranged attackers. Which sounds like a feature.

Still a bit inelegant.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Not to mention, an exploit that requires two characters to pull off, requires the paladin to use a non standard paladin weapon that isn't compatible with his other abilities, and puts one of the party's defenders in the back row shooting arrows, isn't an exploit.

I mean, for crying out loud, you'd get better overall damage by rolling up a Ranger.

I'm not bothered by an "exploit" that lets a paladin mimic a sub par ranger if and only if someone helps him do it.

The Ranger comparison might be the best. The Ranger deals nearly the same damage per round, has better access to ranged weapon per default, and all of his powers rely on his ranged attacks.

The Paladin gives up a lot of his damage potential for getting "free damage". And with the "Twin-Defender lock" proposed, it is not as free as you'd like. The Fighter has to keep close to the enemy, and while he defends quite successfully, he will still be subject to attacks every round. So, instead of spreading damage to two targets, all the damage goes to one. That might be a little bit more dangerous for the Fighter.

No, I think it is an elegant fix.

 

[FireLance]

Nonprofiency only means that you won't get the specific weapon bonus (bows get a + to attack I think) but when you go so far away that you only hit with a 20 anyway this doesn't matter.

Good point. There are only two range categories in 4e, though, and you get only a single penalty at the longer range (-2, I think, or maybe -4), and beyond that you can't attack the target at all. So while you could theoretically retreat to the higher range for your weapon, you can't go beyond that and maintain the challenge.

And you forget muticlassing. A single ability from a ranger, wizard or warlock removes that "not effective at range" as might using magical items (depending on what they can do).

I don't think you can get at-will abilities from multiclassing. Generally, even if you get an at-will ability from the secondary class, it becomes an encounter ability for you.

 

[Njall]

Well, this tactic
is effective only against a solo monster;
Requires that the fighter takes care of the paladin instead of the squishies;
Doesn't work if your opponent has some kind of ranged ability as well;
Uses the paladin's standard attack each round;

Furthermore, you're assuming that the fighters' AoO never miss. If he misses, then the monster will just chase the paladin, that will draw an AoO himself every time he tries to move away from melee range, unless he shifts. If both the paladin and the monster shift, the monster will probably reach the paladin anyway, since shifting doesn't draw an AoO (it does, however, draw a basic attack from the fighter, if the fighter was adjacent to the monster in the first place).
So it all boils down to an extra basic attack for the fighter, with no automatic damage ( that was the problem ). Sounds like a fix to me.

 

[Plane Sailing]

So it all boils down to an extra basic attack for the fighter, with no automatic damage ( that was the problem ). Sounds like a fix to me.

Don't forget the fighter feat that makes the situation problematic - if a creature incurs an AoO from a fighter and is hit, it is stopped in its tracks and doesn't get to continue moving.

That is what makes a 'fighter pins and paladin taunts' situation potentially so nasty for the target.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Nonprofiency only means that you won't get the specific weapon bonus (bows get a + to attack I think) but when you go so far away that you only hit with a 20 anyway this doesn't matter.

As per my earlier post - only true if the encounter is taking place on a featureless plain.

Monster goes out of line of sight for the paladin and 'ping', no more automatic damage from the challenge.

 

[fedelas]

the RAW text didn't fix the mark very well, IMO if in the clause were included that the the mark expire if the paladin move away to the range of the burst (IIRC 5 square) the mark wil be better fixed (yes you can pair up with a sticky fighter and shoot with a bow from the fifth square but is obviously easy for a monster to reach you here than to sideral distance) certainly not perfect but i think more in tone with my paladin idea and a lot more balanced.

 

[Derren]

As per my earlier post - only true if the encounter is taking place on a featureless plain.

Monster goes out of line of sight for the paladin and 'ping', no more automatic damage from the challenge.

Which only works when you are in a dungeon with lots of curves and no straight corridors.

 

[Wormwood]

This "fix" is particularly inelegant.

Which only underscores my increasing irritation with the "Marking" concept as a whole.

 

[tomtill]

Some classes and combinations of classes are much more effective than others in a given situation. That's what makes tactics fun. Arranging the battlefield to optimize the party's effectiveness is part of the fun. A kobold skirmisher gets a +1 for every ally adjacent to the target. That makes him much more effective if the kobolds minions swarm.

A paladin using a ranged attack is much more effective if a fighter is pinning the target.

Is this a problem?

The paladin's challenge is a power with the divine and radiant keywords. IMO this means that it is based on divine magic. One fluff to describe this might go something like this: the target magically is only able to see the paladin, all other enemies disappear from his view, or become irrelevant obstacles. Single-mindedly chasing his target, he forgets any concept of danger to himself or his own tactics. He must get that paladin! When something does come to his attention, like the intervening fighter, he can with great force of will tear his attention away from the paladin to attack the fighter, but he finds this saps his vitality (hp) and he exhausts himself trying to ignore his own desire to fight the paladin.

The paladin and his allies know the effect of the challenge. They would be foolish not to utilize it.

The paladin attacking at range is still being quite paladin-like, knowingly using his divine power to control the opponent, giving tactical advantage to his own party. Whether that is a good tactical strategy in a given situation is a good question for the players, but I don't think it is in any way out of character for the paladin (unless the role-player has him screaming like a little girl)