Paladin's mount NA

[Artoomis]

Yes, and he disagrees with you.

Hmmm... Not what I recall, do you have his response?

Defenders of the Faith also disagrees - the sample paladin warhorse uses "replaces" instead of "adds to".

Not owning DotF I can't check that, but it certainly would not be the only published incorrect application of the rules.

Familiars have "+1" or some other value, whereas warhorses have "4" or another value - the "+"makes a difference.

Well, I am not so sure that makes a difference. looking at all three together, it looks like they all are supposed to work the same way.

Anyway, I added it to my list of debatable items. I should probably send that list out to get various opions (Sage, Monte, etc.) when it's ready. Maybe they'll all get added to the FAQ as a result (well, those that aren't there yet).

See the "Problem Rules" thread for what I'm talking about..

 

[Lichtenhart]

OK, I couldn't find that phrase in DotF,
but I found this quote in T&B:

Natural Armor: Familiars are extra tough and gain improved natural armor, which increases according to your level.This is not an enhancement modifier to any existing natural armor - the familiar simply gets more of it as your level increases.

Now, PH says

Natural Armor: This number improves the familiar's AC. It represents a familiar's preternatural toughness.

and

Natural Armor: The number listed here is an improvement to the mount's AC. It represents the preternatural toughness of a paladin's mount.

Does the ruling in T&B also work for mounts?
Now I think so, but isn't somewhat strange to look in T&B for something about paladin's mount?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I don't see the confusion. The mount gets an *improvement* to natural armor, not a bonus. Take the mount's natural armor and *improved* it by the amount on the table. Note that this is to improve the mount's survivability.

 

[reapersaurus]

I was under the impression that it had been fairly agreed upon that it was an improvement to the mount's natural armor.

But stepping back for a bit, let me ask this:
WHY would they have made a AC benefit for a paladin's mount that DOESN'T benefit a war horse?

Meaning this: a war horse has +4 Natural Armor straight out the gate.
Why would they have made the paladin's mount start with a +4 "Natural Armor bonus" if it wouldn't help out a horse?

Don't say they weren't keeping a war horse in mind when making the paladin's mount rules.

 

[Lichtenhart]

One of my players said exactly that they were keeping a war horse in mind when making the paladin's mount rules, so instead of a +X like familiars, they made a progression that started with the normal value of a war horse's natural armor. He would agree with CRGreathouse.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Why would they have made the paladin's mount start with a +4 "Natural Armor bonus" if it wouldn't help out a horse?

Don't say they weren't keeping a war horse in mind when making the paladin's mount rules.

Because it would confuse people to have a blank spot in the chart?

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Um...what about Dragons in the DoF?

By this rationale about a paladin's warhorse having a total +4 NA at L5 thingy...

When you can first have a young silver dragon at L12, (the first time you could get the Leadership feat for a dragon mount), it would have a +4 NA, instead of the +11 NA it has in the MM.

I think it's pretty clear that a mount gets the listed bonus plus it's normal NA. It would have +15 NA at L12.

Another example:

If you look in the SaF, page 67, it lists the statistics for a paladin and his mount. The paladin is L7 and the mount has +8 NA, not +4.

Yes, this is powerful, but no more powerful than having a cohort, or casting power word kill. A measly +4 NA for something you're never going to be on anyway is nothing to complain about, but it isn't overpowering.

And don't bring Polymorph into this...

 

[CRGreathouse]

If you look in the SaF, page 67, it lists the statistics for a paladin and his mount. The paladin is L7 and the mount has +8 NA, not +4.

Did you forget about the mount's barding?

 

[Artoomis]

Did you forget about the mount's barding?

He stated +8 NA, not +8 AC. If that's true, there's only one way to get there other than a hefty magic item.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Just to clear this up...

The mount's AC in the SaF, page 67 reads:

"AC 21 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +3 masterwork studded leather barding, +8 natural)"

And the mount is not equipped with any magic items and none of the paladin's items have anything to do with his mount's NA.