Palladium Announces Collapse of Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter

Back in 2013, Palladium Books successfully funded a miniature wargame based on the Robotech Role-Playing Game (originally published by Palladium in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and reprinted up until 1998). They raised over $1.4 million from over 5,000 backers. However, Kevin Sembieda, president of Palladium, announced today that they were not going to be able to provide some of the rewards for the Kickstarter; and, further still, that Palladium's license to produce Robotech gaming material had expired and would not be renewed.

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Robotech is a sci-fi property featuring alien invaders and mecha. Robotech RPG Tactics is, in Palladium's words, "a fast paced strategy battle game that expands on the popular Palladium role playing game. Take command of the brave men and women of the United Earth Defense Force to valiantly defend Earth from annihilation. Or, command the alien armies of the Zentraedi Armada to recover an alien artifact of immense power and enslave humankind. Collect your forces from an expanding range of world class game pieces. Relive the massive battles on your tabletop at home to enhance your Robotech® RPG adventures or as a stand-alone game."

In a lengthy update, Sembieda explained the various woes which have plagued the project.

Originally scheduled for a Fall 2013 release, the company ran into problems when the found out the 3D design files for various game pieces were not compatible with the manufacturer's process.

The second setback came when shipping costs increased (or, as Sembieda explains it, changed from being paid for not just by the weight, but also by the physical side of the package) which added around $200,000 to the project's shipping costs.

Apparently the Kickstarter money was all spent on the "Wave One" rewards; it's the Wave Two rewards which the company is unable to fulfil, the cost of which they estimate as being in the region of half a million dollars.

Palladium is offering Wave One rewards in place of Wave Two rewards, as long as the recipients pay for shipping.

The reactions are as to be expected - backers are angry, and most appear to be rejecting the offer of replacement rewards. There are many demands for refunds, some discussion about lawsuits, and plenty of venting. There's even a Facebook group for people who wish to sue Palladium. What will happen next is anybody's guess, but this isn't the first high profile Kickstarter to fail, and it won't be the last.

 

[Cergorach]

There is never a guarantee with a preorder, companies go bankrupt before they can deliver or they just don't really deliver what they promised (a quality product).

KS is NOT an investment, investments are a clearly defined product which KS can't offer due to laws in (at least) the US.
According to consumer laws in the EU, a KS is a preorder that requires the company to deliver the said products. Now, things get tricky... It's unclear if that also includes any 'bonus' items, aka. stretch goals, these could be seen as gifts and not the actual product you paid for...

No one out to get a refund will probably not start a lawsuit, those cost money and if the money is already gone (you can't pluck any feathers from an already plucked chicken), what money can you actually lay claims too? Now if someone wanted to destroy Palladium permanently, they could try to sue it into oblivion. With the way we were treated by specifically Kevin, I wouldn't mind pursuing that action, but that also entails risks. If their lawyer is better then your lawyer, you might get screwed by the legal costs of both parties. And now Palladium is 'trying' to fix things with offering us something, that might change things in the eyes of the court, especially when they have a hard time grasping that mini A isn't the same as mini B...

 

[J.L. Duncan]

"KS is an investment. There are risks. It is not a pre-order."

People say this, and KS says this, and they aren't technically wrong - but this is - in my experience, for many products - not how KS actually works, or how people actually treat it. People treat it exactly as a pre-order system ...and then get mad when things like this happen. And to be fair, even KS treats itself like a pre-order system sometimes, because it makes them a lot of money.

Some people who start kickstarters treat it as a pre-order system. For many projects, it IS a pre-order system; KS has turned into a storefront for these products - except with murky claims of "it's not guaranteed" in the background, downplayed by everyone (including KS), to boost sales.

The last line in the post is really the entire takeaway here.

KS does not say that the projects funded under their platform are an investment. In fact, they've changed the wording of their ToS and always specifically kept the word "investment" out of it.

Investments are protected by law; and have stipulations which the party who offered "the investment" might be financially liable otherwise.
Crowdsourcing is a gamble.

 

[J.L. Duncan]

Those saying that Kickstarter is an investment... I strongly suggest you look up the word investment. An investment is specific thing, protected by law in most every country in the world including the US.

 

[J.L. Duncan]

Re: the lawsuits

Depending on what Kickstarter's terms were at the time of Palladium's original Kickstarter, the lawsuit may not go anywhere. There's a heavy "back at your own risk" element to them.

But that changes from the standard since Palladium changed what they were delivering and how after money had already been accepted by them. Again, depending on Kickstarter's terms and conditions, this could give the backers room to sue based on the fact that Palladium changed what they'd paid for without their approval. And if Palladium did indeed give false information durnig backer updates, that could also provide grounds for fraud, esepecially if they were still asking for more money -- even if only to cover additional shipping and handling costs.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, as it can make publishers a lot more careful regarding how they use crowdfunding if Palladium gets burned by this (well, beyond the public relations bridge they just napalmed.)

The lawsuit will not go anywhere if things continue as is over on that Facebook page. Apparently, the lawyer (a sister of one of the backers) that was contacted wrote up a threat of legal action and sent that letter to Palladium siting KS ToS; which a judge wouldn't move a finger on and has no legal standing. i didn't understand this (than to suspect it wasn't a real lawyer) as anyone putting forth a letter should be directly siting Law (and how it was violated) not KS' ToS.

The only thing which is relevant, which is what you note, is whether Palladium can account for everything and can prove they've not committed fraud. If there is a question on that and it's brought to court a judge might order them to open and account for their books. Will this happen? Who knows. It might, if those backers get a real lawyer. And most likely have a backer who is in the state of Michigan head the effort... Otherwise they should all be contacting the FTC...

I mean I feel for those folks but if they want to do something other than gnash their teeth... A better effort will be required than what is going on currently.

 

[aramis erak]

Well, let's just hope Harmony Gold doesn't get to renew their licence in turn, when it will end in 2021.

I don't think anyone will try to pick up a licence for a Robotech RPG, given such a limited timeframe: even in best case scenario, a new RPG wouldn't be out before next year and, as such, the assured shelf life of it would be of just two years. It wouldn't be worth the risk and all the trouble one must face.

I'm also of the idea that the Robotech IP has done its course and that it's about time to disentangle the Macross brand from it. The fact that we can't have the classical Macross series freely available outside of Japan because of Harmony Gold is a pain.

R. Talsorian could probably have one out in 3 months in PDF, and 6 in dead tree. they had (unofficial) conversions for Mekton Zeta by 1999.

As for macross, can't speak to it other than abstractly. Considering the Robotech views, however, on Netflix, I would expect HG to get a renewal, tho' perhaps not an exclusive one.

 

[Gilwen]

WOW! I can't say i'm surprised. Palladium is beyond legendary for missing release dates, and just about as legendary at managing anything or not paying attention to stuff...but it's never their fault, it's always someone else's. Kevin will likely declare this THE CRISIS OF TREACHARY VOL. II (TM) and beg for donations on their website to stay afloat again.

 

[Jhaelen]

Ouch! Then again, it's Palladium, so...

 

[Ghal Maraz]

R. Talsorian could probably have one out in 3 months in PDF, and 6 in dead tree. they had (unofficial) conversions for Mekton Zeta by 1999.

As for macross, can't speak to it other than abstractly. Considering the Robotech views, however, on Netflix, I would expect HG to get a renewal, tho' perhaps not an exclusive one.

It's not that easy. Licenses mean a lot of material going back and forth for approval; mean that you want to perhaps use official pictures, but you lose more time choosing which ones, together with the licensor; mean a lot of legal questions even before you sign the contract; mean more seriously enforced NDAs for everyone involved with the project...

And I wouldn't trust R. Talsorian of today to really be up to it with ease and swiftness. R. Talsorian of yesteryear, sure. But the company which exists now? Not at all.

How late is the Mekton Zero Kickstater? By my counting, 4 years and 3 months, just for the Core Rulebook.

How late is the The Witcher RPG? More or less 21 months.

Don't count on Talsorian for that. And it's a pity, as RT was a GREAT publisher in the late Eighties and in the Nineties.

As for Robotech doing well on Netflix? The license could certainly go to someone else, provided the huge IP that's Macross in Japan simply doesn't prevent Robotech from continuing to exist as the chaotic patchwork it's always been. Just to be clear, in Japan Macross is the other HUGE, historical mecha IP, alongside Mobile Suit Gundam.

However, considering the now long-standing litigation between Harmony Gold and Tatsunoko, I wouldn't expect Tatsunoko to renew the license... unless perhaps if HG puts on the plate very, very, VERY big money. Which I find unlikely.

Even more so if keeping Robotech alive creates further litigation from Studio Nue and Big West.

 

[kenmarable]

The lawsuit will not go anywhere if things continue as is over on that Facebook page. Apparently, the lawyer (a sister of one of the backers) that was contacted wrote up a threat of legal action and sent that letter to Palladium siting KS ToS; which a judge wouldn't move a finger on and has no legal standing. i didn't understand this (than to suspect it wasn't a real lawyer) as anyone putting forth a letter should be directly siting Law (and how it was violated) not KS' ToS.

The only thing which is relevant, which is what you note, is whether Palladium can account for everything and can prove they've not committed fraud. If there is a question on that and it's brought to court a judge might order them to open and account for their books. Will this happen? Who knows. It might, if those backers get a real lawyer. And most likely have a backer who is in the state of Michigan head the effort... Otherwise they should all be contacting the FTC...

I mean I feel for those folks but if they want to do something other than gnash their teeth... A better effort will be required than what is going on currently.

Fraud would be a criminal law issue and up to the attorney general's office. Backers can alert the AG to information about the case, but then it's out of their hands as to whether charges are filed or not.

The lawsuit, however, is a civil law issue. The Terms of Service is a legally binding contract, and therefore a class action lawsuit claiming breach of contract would be focused on KS ToS (and possibly various promises made by Palladium). So the KS ToS is absolutely central to the civil lawsuit and absolutely has legal standing. It's a business contract both parties agreed to.

 

[J.L. Duncan]

Fraud would be a criminal law issue and up to the attorney general's office. Backers can alert the AG to information about the case, but then it's out of their hands as to whether charges are filed or not.

The lawsuit, however, is a civil law issue. The Terms of Service is a legally binding contract, and therefore a class action lawsuit claiming breach of contract would be focused on KS ToS (and possibly various promises made by Palladium). So the KS ToS is absolutely central to the civil lawsuit and absolutely has legal standing. It's a business contract both parties agreed to.

I could very easily be wrong, but fraud is not only a criminal law issue: https://www.lilesparker.com/2012/11/29/civil-fraud/

Yes, backers can contact the AG of Michigan, but unless those backers reside in Michigan that AG won't listen to them. Each backer will be encouraged to contact the AG of whichever state they live in.

Whether or not the Terms of Service is a legally binding contact is for a judge to decide. Common sense would say yes, but that's the point: It isn't yet decided in this specific instance and in order to get it in front of a judge you have to determine a specific course of action under the law which has nothing to do with Kickstarters ToS... And when I asked the "lawyer" on that Facebook page what they were planning the answer was that they were not sure... A lawyer doesn't move without a plan; otherwise there is no point.

Edit: that last line... What I should say is; I fail to see the point, if there is no plan.