Pantheon design

[paradox42]

Wow, what an answer! That sounds like quite a setup.

Thank you. Of course, having had 20-odd years to develop it does make some difference, I'm sure.

You have a very regimented pantheon. What would happen if something occurred to shake it up -- say, the good Greater God died?

Something on that level would be quite a shake-up- I never really explored such ideas in detail, but I'm sure it would prove interesting. There are, actually, potential campaign events I've been dropping into my current games which could cause such shakeups if allowed to fully bear fruit. The adventure I had planned, and explained once in the 'Chronicle' thread, is one of them. Presumably in the 'projection' where the demons win, several if not most of the current gods die, leaving the pantheon in tatters.

Why does your Triad work together (and not vie for supremacy)?

Enlightened self-interest for the most part. Each of the three is a god of Magic, true, but the other three spheres of influence are radically different between them. Good-guy has Heroes, Kings, and High Science/Technology as his alternates; Neutral-sometimes-guy has Change, Opposites, and Energy. Neo-Raist has Death, Pain, and Darkness. So really, each of the three has several methods of dealing with problems that the other two just can't touch, and since each of them is equally powerful what typically happens is that if one of them does something radical, the other two gang up and stop him. So in a way, they are vying for supremacy; it's just contained and relatively under control.

That's interesting. My world is both older and younger than yours, in different senses. My history is perhaps a tenth yours, with the creation of the world dating back only (\me checks notes) about 22,500 years. On the other hand, the current pantheon (with minor changes) has ruled for four times as long as yours. Yet again on the other side, the most recent off the major races was 'just' created, with humanity weighing in at just over 3200 years old.

Races are a whole different story, on mine. I have a major and obvious division between 'Elder' races who were around before the Annihilation (the catastrophe mentioned in the previous post), and 'Mutants' who came into the world after it- even though some of them aren't actually mutants in the proper sense of the term (for example, the Crystalloid race I mentioned in the 'First Immortal game' thread came into the world afterward, but aren't evolved from anything that was originally native to the planet). The Elder races, I even have a 'family tree' of sorts going back to the actual Creation event over 200 millennia ago- the first three were Elves, Aboleths, and Dragons. All the other Elder Races, with the exception of Dwarves, came ultimately from them. Dwarves were created after the first war as a sort of peace monument.

Out of curiosity, which of your gods are original -- or have you not decided yet? Any of the 18 intermediate ones?

Oh no, in a scheme this complex, rest assured I know exactly who was around in the Beginning, and have for years. One Good deity, two Neutral ones, and one Evil one are original creator-deities of this world. The Good one is the goddess of Nature, the Neutrals are the god of Law and the goddess of Time, and the Evil one is the god of Hate. Every other deity in the pantheon is assumed to be an interloper (for example, I have Bast from the Egyptian pantheon as a member of the Good faction, though her religion in this world bears many striking differences from her religion as portrayed in other game settings where she shows up, or even historically for that matter) or ascended mortal.

Is this anything like Vance's Dying Earth?

No, not really, since this world isn't assumed to be dying- it's assumed to be recovering. Slowly. Of course, many things are happening which could put it into the state of 'dying,' but that's what the PCs are for. Also, I've never assumed that magic and psionics are some sort of super-science that modern people just don't understand, like Vance's novels seem to assume. In my world, magic and technology evolved in tandem, side by side- to levels almost unimaginable by modern Earthers. The only reason that civilization fell is that it imploded in civil war- nothing else in the multiverse, except perhaps the two Sidereals (formerly three), could compete with them.

Actually, on a side note, this is what led to the current imbalance between Law and Chaos in my homebrew cosmos- the Devils once made the mistake of trying to invade the Material Plane where this world existed. The people, after driving back the invasion, were so incensed by the attack that they mounted a counter-offensive that literally scoured the Hells and killed every single original member of the Lord of the Nine- except Dispater, who betrayed his own kind and allowed the 'Great Red Fleet' to pass through his realm unmolested in exchange for leaving it alone. Thus, the being calling himself Asmodeus in my game is not in fact the 'real' Asmodeus at all, but an imposter who merely assumed his mantle upon gaining the throne. Anyway, after the scouring of Hell, the lord of Heaven- the original ruler of Lawful Good in the cosmos- set a pogrom upon the mortals for daring to upset the cosmic balance, which the mortals happily turned into an excuse to lay waste to the Heavens in much the same manner right after they finished dealing with Hell. Thus, that being is now quite dead as well, and only the beings of Lawful Neutrality are in any way 'original' to my multiverse.

Who actually has the power to permit demigods to ascend?

It's a mystery. Honestly, I've never had to figure it out, so I've left it alone until something forced me to decide.

Is it possible that two of the Triad could conspire against the third, bringing in just two new lesser gods?

Probably, yes, though usually they abide by the ancient compact that kept the factions together after the alignments caused the split-up of the original pantheon (or at any rate, the pantheon that came together to help restore the world after the Annihilation). The alignment split didn't happen until around 2000 years later; before that time the pantheon was one pretty-much monolithic group.

I don't think they want to shake things up, but could they?

Not wanting to shake things up is the real reason they see to it that demigods ascend in threes. So yes, they probably could. No doubt, interesting game plots could revolve around one of them deciding to break the compact and do just that.

Very interesting. I presume there's no real commonality between gods of the same ethical (Law-Chaos) alignment, then, since Chaos is favored and Law does not wish to start a conflict that would end it.

Law is definitely 'on the ropes' in my version of the multiverse, yes, though as you can see from the above that actually predates this pantheon by several millennia. What I like to say about it is that, although Law is definitely on the losing side and fighting a defensive battle, Chaos (being what it is) has done nothing with its victory but metaphorically sit on it going 'Neener, neener!'

How did the PCs come to know of the sidereal?

Ah, therein lies another story. Though really, there's no reason to tell the whole thing- they were told about her, directly, by other gods they were meeting with at the time as part of an explanation for why the gods were helpless to fix the problem of missing souls in recently-born children. And yes, anybody who's read through the original 3.0 Adventure Path will recognize that as a story hook to the Bastion of Broken Souls- I ran my now-Epic (then just-barely-sub-Epic) party through that a few years ago. So, the characters who were at that meeting with the gods know the truth about the Lady of Light. They've mostly kept it secret from newer party members, I say 'mostly' because some hints have been dropped in conversations (and we always tell new players the whole truth, with the understanding that their actual characters don't know), but when the new characters try to follow up on those hints the knowing party members basically say 'You're better off not knowing.'

Do avatars develop their own personality and so forth, or are they purely an extension of their creator? That is, does the Goddess exist (to some degree) apart from the sidereal, like a split mind or a personality shard?

That, too, is a mystery, though it's been implied that she does have a partially-seperate personality. That said, after the Bastion adventure was finished, she came to meet the party in person, and among other things remarked that the Defender would 'sleep for now,' and also remarked upon events that shouldn't have been visible to anything but the Sidereal itself. So it's clear that she has some mental connection to her Source. Really, I like to keep my options open as a DM, so that's what I did here.

What about... the punching dagger? Lance? Sai?

Bah! You caught me. None of those are favored either. I guess, looking over my list again, I must admit it isn't as diverse as it could be. Still, there are several oddities on the list like Light Flail, and Claw Glove/Wrist Razors, so it's not like there aren't plenty to choose from.

I'm just kidding. That's pretty cool. As for me, I don't really give out ranged weapons as favored weapons, but I'm otherwise fairly well distributed. I have one question about your favored weapons, though: What do you give to your gods of magic? Quarterstaff is very common, but it gets old quickly.

Good-guy has the Longsword, Neutral one (being an ultimate-Chaotic deity of Change) has a listing of 'Any one Exotic weapon, chosen at 1st level,' and Evil-guy (being god of Death) has the Scythe. None of the three actually favors traditional Wizard weapons, oddly enough.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Thank you. Of course, having had 20-odd years to develop it does make some difference, I'm sure.

No doubt. I should have started earlier -- I've 'only' put in half to a third as much time.

Something on that level would be quite a shake-up- I never really explored such ideas in detail, but I'm sure it would prove interesting. There are, actually, potential campaign events I've been dropping into my current games which could cause such shakeups if allowed to fully bear fruit. The adventure I had planned, and explained once in the 'Chronicle' thread, is one of them. Presumably in the 'projection' where the demons win, several if not most of the current gods die, leaving the pantheon in tatters.

I do very much like to shake things up in my game, although admittedly I've never done it to that level. I have, however, had gods die -- several (including a greater god) historically, and at least one during in-game time. Similarly in recent memory a god ascended. On the mundane level, one nation has fallen and a long-running war has ended.

Your last line does bring up a question, though. What's the power relation between demons/devils and their masters vs. the gods? In the standard Great Wheel cosmology, it seems the (evil) gods don't have all that much power compared to the demon lords and archdevils, that if the Blood War was to not keep them occupied they'd directly challenge the dark gods for control. As it stands, there, gods control tiny realms compared to the vast empires of the demons and devils. What's it like in your campaign? Clearly the demons have some power compared to the gods, or else their victory would not cause the deaths of so many gods.

Races are a whole different story, on mine. I have a major and obvious division between 'Elder' races who were around before the Annihilation (the catastrophe mentioned in the previous post), and 'Mutants' who came into the world after it- even though some of them aren't actually mutants in the proper sense of the term (for example, the Crystalloid race I mentioned in the 'First Immortal game' thread came into the world afterward, but aren't evolved from anything that was originally native to the planet). The Elder races, I even have a 'family tree' of sorts going back to the actual Creation event over 200 millennia ago- the first three were Elves, Aboleths, and Dragons. All the other Elder Races, with the exception of Dwarves, came ultimately from them. Dwarves were created after the first war as a sort of peace monument.

Amusingly similar to mine, except it was humans not dwarves, and the original creation was a mistake. The final creation was a 'committee effort'.

Actually, on a side note, this is what led to the current imbalance between Law and Chaos in my homebrew cosmos- the Devils once made the mistake of trying to invade the Material Plane where this world existed. The people, after driving back the invasion, were so incensed by the attack that they mounted a counter-offensive that literally scoured the Hells and killed every single original member of the Lord of the Nine- except Dispater, who betrayed his own kind and allowed the 'Great Red Fleet' to pass through his realm unmolested in exchange for leaving it alone. Thus, the being calling himself Asmodeus in my game is not in fact the 'real' Asmodeus at all, but an imposter who merely assumed his mantle upon gaining the throne. Anyway, after the scouring of Hell, the lord of Heaven- the original ruler of Lawful Good in the cosmos- set a pogrom upon the mortals for daring to upset the cosmic balance, which the mortals happily turned into an excuse to lay waste to the Heavens in much the same manner right after they finished dealing with Hell. Thus, that being is now quite dead as well, and only the beings of Lawful Neutrality are in any way 'original' to my multiverse.

So much for the theory that demons had power. So mortals are, or were, the primary force in your setting?

Probably, yes, though usually they abide by the ancient compact that kept the factions together after the alignments caused the split-up of the original pantheon (or at any rate, the pantheon that came together to help restore the world after the Annihilation). The alignment split didn't happen until around 2000 years later; before that time the pantheon was one pretty-much monolithic group.

So the current alignments of the gods are ~3000 years old. What about the personalities and the like: was the (NE greater) death god still a death god then? Was the (CN greater) god of change still a god of change? Am I misunderstanding?

Law is definitely 'on the ropes' in my version of the multiverse, yes, though as you can see from the above that actually predates this pantheon by several millennia. What I like to say about it is that, although Law is definitely on the losing side and fighting a defensive battle, Chaos (being what it is) has done nothing with its victory but metaphorically sit on it going 'Neener, neener!'

I did get that distinct impression.

That, too, is a mystery, though it's been implied that she does have a partially-seperate personality. That said, after the Bastion adventure was finished, she came to meet the party in person, and among other things remarked that the Defender would 'sleep for now,' and also remarked upon events that shouldn't have been visible to anything but the Sidereal itself. So it's clear that she has some mental connection to her Source. Really, I like to keep my options open as a DM, so that's what I did here.

Cool. I wonder how you'll develop that over the coming years. In any case I'm not surprised that the goddess would be privy to at least some of the Sidereal's knowledge.

Bah! You caught me. None of those are favored either. I guess, looking over my list again, I must admit it isn't as diverse as it could be. Still, there are several oddities on the list like Light Flail, and Claw Glove/Wrist Razors, so it's not like there aren't plenty to choose from.

I just picked some of the weapons that are seldom favored -- none are in my campaign. Of course as I mentioned I don't have more than a dozen or so demigods statted.

Good-guy has the Longsword, Neutral one (being an ultimate-Chaotic deity of Change) has a listing of 'Any one Exotic weapon, chosen at 1st level,' and Evil-guy (being god of Death) has the Scythe. None of the three actually favors traditional Wizard weapons, oddly enough.

You get major kudos from me for not choosing stereotypical mage weapons.

 

[paradox42]

I do very much like to shake things up in my game, although admittedly I've never done it to that level. I have, however, had gods die -- several (including a greater god) historically, and at least one during in-game time. Similarly in recent memory a god ascended. On the mundane level, one nation has fallen and a long-running war has ended.

I haven't done anything like this directly in-game, though I have had shake-ups happen in recent memory- for example, one event called the 'Revolution of Five Elements' wherein five (pretty much insane) Demigods got together and tried to replace the traditional elements with their own ideas, specifically those matching the 'Discordian Elements' of Boom, Orange, Prickle, Pungent, and Sweet. The demigods' scheme failed, and they were imprisoned in the demiplanes they had created in the attempt to replace the Elemental Planes- and their worshippers totally cut off from them. They are now, effectively, dead, though their servant creatures (collectively dubbed the 'Chaos Elementals') still roam the cosmos looking for ways to bring their creators power and hoping to one day break them free again.

Okay, so maybe I took a comment I read once about 'Actual Elementals of these concepts should remain at best a warped alternative D&D concept' a little too seriously, but the game's all about fun right?

As another example, it's postulated in history notes that the pantheon which originally got together to help the world 5000 years ago had only 21 members, all Lesser Deity or above in status, so that means that at least three times in history a trio of Demideities has been promoted to Lessers (and at least some Lessers have risen to Intermediates). I haven't ever actually sat down and figured out who ascended to what level when, but it probably wouldn't be hard to figure out since I know who the original 21 were (all are still around as members of the current Thirty, and the Triad were the leaders even at the beginning).

Your last line does bring up a question, though. What's the power relation between demons/devils and their masters vs. the gods? In the standard Great Wheel cosmology, it seems the (evil) gods don't have all that much power compared to the demon lords and archdevils, that if the Blood War was to not keep them occupied they'd directly challenge the dark gods for control. As it stands, there, gods control tiny realms compared to the vast empires of the demons and devils. What's it like in your campaign? Clearly the demons have some power compared to the gods, or else their victory would not cause the deaths of so many gods.

Actually, the deaths would happen because the gods would get together to fight the demons, and thus be vulnerable to taking personal damage- as well as losing the massive power that would come from losing so many of their worshippers (if not all), not to mention losing the battle in the first place (which would tend to make people turn away from them and look for some other 'True Power' to help them survive). As for how things are assumed to stand now, I'm basically assuming the dark gods are more interested in direct interaction with mortals than anything on the actual Outer Planes, or they could collectively get together and whup the demon/devil lords' butts with a token effort. The archfiends are, in other words, definitely assumed to be less than deities, though presumably as individuals each one is a match for a single Lesser God or Demigod depending on the entity in question.

So much for the theory that demons had power. So mortals are, or were, the primary force in your setting?

Not the way you seem to be assuming- what you have to understand about the event is the timing of it. Specifically, it all happened pretty much at the height of that incredibly-high-tech-and-magic civilization I mentioned before. The Devils basically didn't honestly believe that the mortals would be capable of beating them, since individually a mortal is so much less powerful than one of them, but the mortal technology was far, far more powerful than the fiends realized. And to their eternal folly and regret, they provoked the mortals to send the 'Great Red Fleet' in response- even Asmodeus himself wasn't able to withstand the onslaught of three planet-sized warships bristling with weapons to make the Death Star look like a toy hand crossbow! Basically, up until that point the cosmos outside this mortal civilization had been treating them pretty much as any other mortal world, ignoring the potential their technology and magical expertise gave them. After the counterstrike on the Hells and Heavens, well... we'll just say the mortals got more respect and leave it at that.

Of course, the modern-day inhabitants of the world aren't nearly as powerful as their ancestors, a fact which the demons fully intend to exploit in their upcoming invasion. Hence the possibility of failure.

So the current alignments of the gods are ~3000 years old. What about the personalities and the like: was the (NE greater) death god still a death god then? Was the (CN greater) god of change still a god of change? Am I misunderstanding?

Yes, in the sense that you're thinking the alignments are new. They aren't- the deities who got together always did have their current alignments and spheres of influence, or anyway those 21 who were part of that pre-split pantheon did. The only thing that changed was the deities' reactions to and treatment of each other. Essentially before the split I'm assuming a sort of 'Principle of Active Morality' like that in Dragonstar was in effect; the deities respected each other and worked together even if some of them preferred rather nastier methods than others. Thus, which ones were Good or Evil didn't matter at that time- they all found ways to work together for the greater benefit of all, even the Evil ones who were in it (again) out of enlightened self-interest.

 

[Phantom Llama]

Slightly off-topic, but this is interesting. Personally, given the Dragon Theory of the Planes, I'd peg Io as a Time Lord... which, coincidentally, means he'd have Sidereal Avatar and Aspects.

Based on that I'd peg Io as a Stage II Demiurge. No First Ones, but there are Old Ones embodying each of the Outer Planes. He's insufficiently everything to be a Time Lord.

 

[WarDragon]

It's there, or can be adapted, just not developed like Krusty's dimension theory is. He mentions "the primal void, home of the utterly destroyed," which sounds like the Entropy dimension in the Kosmos, to me.

 

[Fieari]

Great-Great-Great Wyrm Adamic Dragons of any species are all Stage I demiurges, like Ouroborus.

 

[WarDragon]

I'm planning to build Io from a Prismatic Dragon, which is only Neotic, though it seems to best represent a fusion of all dragonkind, being of all colors. I'll probably advance it to 999 HD, and add the Time Lord template on top.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Great-Great-Great Wyrm Adamic Dragons of any species are all Stage I demiurges, like Ouroborus.

Fieari, may I stat the Dragon Lord of Entropy Atalia for your pantheon?

 

[Alzrius]

Fieari, may I stat the Dragon Lord of Entropy Atalia for your pantheon?

You may want to hold off on that. Several months ago, I was getting ready to try and stat up Atalia, but then I noticed, on U_K's table of contents for the Epic Bestiary volume 2, that she's on there (entry number six).

Of course, given how far down the line that is, maybe you're right to just run with it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Alzrius mate!

You may want to hold off on that. Several months ago, I was getting ready to try and stat up Atalia, but then I noticed, on U_K's table of contents for the Epic Bestiary volume 2, that she's on there (entry number six).

Of course, given how far down the line that is, maybe you're right to just run with it.

The Atalia in Bestiary 2 is different altogether. Its a Lunar Shadow (epic 'humanoid' undead).