Pathfinder 2 Character Sheet #4: Seelah, Human Paladin

It's time for the 4th of our six reveals of the Pathfinder 2nd Edition pregenerated playtest characters. Today, we'll be looking at Seelah, the human paladin. This sheet covers some of the shield mechanics we saw in Valeros' sheet, along with various paladin powers such as Lay on Hands, Hospice Knight, Warded Touch, and Retributive Strike.

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"Seelah has a few things on her sheet that might surprise you, depending on how well you know her backstory. She grew up as a pickpocket before she stole from the paladin of Iomedae who changed her life, and so she actually has Thievery, the Pickpocket feat, and Underworld Lore (I like to think that when she uses it to Practice a Trade, she’s working as a white hat consultant who helps businesses defend against criminal activity). Beyond that, her Retributive Strike punishes enemies for attacking anyone but her, and her lay on hands not only heals a target (avoiding Attacks of Opportunity and the like and usable with her shield thanks to her Warded Touch feat), but when she uses it nonselfishly to protect her allies, it also provides a boost to AC to help prevent the ally from just taking the damage again in the next round."

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Keep an eye out for tomorrow's character, Merisiel, the elf rogue!

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[mellored]

Is character customization a sham because in reality it will only allow a the "most optimized" character to be built the majority of the time, so there's really no customization?

It doesn't seem like it, at least so far.

Mainly, we havn't seen many "+number" options (i.e. no +Cha damage to a damage type, and only having enough fire spells for each level), and all the classes seem to have a pretty narrow window of damage/HP/AC/skills/ect...
Though, everyone get's +level to everything, so the level difference will be very noticeable, but that has nothing to do with the build.


Instead, PF2 seems to be focusing on giving you abilities. Like stealthing at full speed, crafting items, don't provoke OA's, not hurting allies with splash damage, access to different spell lists, turns sneak attack into ongoing damage, etc...

Which, at least on the face of it, means plenty of customization.

 

[mellored]

While you could take multiple opportunity actions in a round (one per turn), you could only take one immediate action (aka reaction) per round. Which is what used to slow down and derail combat in 4e, with lots of stopping each turn and people regularly acting multiple times per round.

Many of the 4e reactoins where fairly complex.
i.e. move, attack, and push someone.
Which could trigger other reaction, like your movement provoking an OA.


Interrupts that just boost/reduce damage/AC didn't confuse people. As it's resolved in the same roll.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Because it's not an issue for you it can't be an issue for someone else?

Do you foresee ANY situation where Seelah, a paladin, would want to attempt to pick a pocket?

Yes

But... can you see a situation where a new player, upon seeing that her character can pick pockets, attempts to do so. And is disappointing by the character's absolute inability to successfully do so?

It's at -2 and the character is a paladin. No. I can't see a situation where a new player who knows what the character is and sees the math thinks it's a good idea to do.

There is a trap option on the sample character. It unlocks the option to do X but not the actually ability to do so. It's like giving someone a feat that increases their fly speed by 20 feet, but not the ability to actually fly.

You see it as a trap. I see it as history and backstory flavor that opens up options to the character in the future that would not be available to the average paladin.

Had this actually been a personal character, that's different. It's one player making a choice for themselves. Okay, in that instance they're (probably) fine with the choice of investing a non-insignificant amount of their starting resources on flavour. (Like a wizard getting heavy armour proficiency with a feat.)
But.. again, this is not something created by one player for their personal use. This is a sample PC built, likely by committee, to show off the system, embody their iconic characters, and also be used by brand new players who are being introduced to the game.
This is the playtest version of the pregens that will be used by every Pathfinder 2 Society game. And I am giving feedback on its design.

1. You're assuming its significant because the rules aren't out yet.
2. You're assuming that there's no way for the feat to be used that breaks your logic, because the rules aren't out yet.
3. You're being negative without enough data before you to tell if there's really a problem to be bothered by.


Therefore you don't have enough information to really provide good feedback on the design. Not trying to be confrontational here, but it is what it is. At best, you're choosing to have an opinion based on limited information and calling it feedback. Lastly, and least importantly

4. Characters do not spontaneously appear. At some point, there was a person creating it. Therefore a player creating it. I feel reasonably confident in saying that all designers play the game and before the iconic was an iconic; it belonged to someone.

They had problems with in-optimal characters in the previous iteration. Harsk, the dwarf ranger, was a hugely problematic character, as the crossbow was not a mechanically strong item. And so players of the iconic were largely penalized in play for "story" reasons (aka how the artist drew the character).

Yesterday is not today and tomorrow is wasted by dwelling on it. Regardless of how you feel and how in some cases past history may be the best predictor of future issues, now it's just a waste of time.

Also, what is this telling me about the game?
Well, it's telling me that the system really isn't designed for characters whose backstories are playing against type. Because you apparently don't get any *meaningful* bonuses for that. Or that backstory options are limited as the least problematic option was one that conferred no benefit.
Neither really sell me to the game.

Yes well, not all benefits in game need to be tied to a resolution mechanic to be useful. Again, when the rules are out, feel free to revisit. At least in my opinion, at my table players get advantages all the time that never turn in to a die roll boost.

Does thievery match Seelah's backstory? Kinda. She was an urchin living on the streets who stole the helmet of a paladin, and ran with it. The paladin caught her and showed her compassion, which prompted young Seelah to follow in her footsteps and become her student, eventually earning her mentor's armour.
There's lots of elements to that backstory that could work with a different feat. Surviving in the streets. Being mentored by a holy warrior.
(It's not like the Pickpocket feat would have really helped with that backstory. Either the helmet was off and thus no feat was required, or it was worn and not subject to the feat.)

I know how you feel, usually happens when I'm off my meds.

Be well
KB

 

[mellored]

Most hits won't dent. It's not like tracking HP. When you get hit for more than the shield can take you check off a box. I don't see it as being very complex.

The paladin does 1d8+4 (5 damage minimum). Enough to dent a shield each hit.

Thus a shield roughly provides you with extra 10 HP, which is fair.
But I wonder if something like "the shield can absorb 10 damage before it breaks" would be easier.


Maybe like Final Fantasy Tactics, where armor and shields only gave you THP.

 

[Jester David]

Many of the 4e reactoins where fairly complex.
i.e. move, attack, and push someone.
Which could trigger other reaction, like your movement provoking an OA.


Interrupts that just boost/reduce damage/AC didn't confuse people. As it's resolved in the same roll.

True.
I wasn't claiming that Seelah's reaction was as complicated as 4e.

But, this is a full on attack that can be done every round. So Seelah basically gets a bonus attack. (The rogue really wants her as a flank buddy.)
It is also an example of a level 1 reaction, and we don't know what else a level 5 or level 10 Paladin can use to buff a Strike via feats/ spellls/ magic items.

 

[Jester David]

Yes



It's at -2 and the character is a paladin. No. I can't see a situation where a new player who knows what the character is and sees the math thinks it's a good idea to do.



You see it as a trap. I see it as history and backstory flavor that opens up options to the character in the future that would not be available to the average paladin.



1. You're assuming its significant because the rules aren't out yet.
2. You're assuming that there's no way for the feat to be used that breaks your logic, because the rules aren't out yet.
3. You're being negative without enough data before you to tell if there's really a problem to be bothered by.


Therefore you don't have enough information to really provide good feedback on the design. Not trying to be confrontational here, but it is what it is. At best, you're choosing to have an opinion based on limited information and calling it feedback. Lastly, and least importantly

4. Characters do not spontaneously appear. At some point, there was a person creating it. Therefore a player creating it. I feel reasonably confident in saying that all designers play the game and before the iconic was an iconic; it belonged to someone.



Yesterday is not today and tomorrow is wasted by dwelling on it. Regardless of how you feel and how in some cases past history may be the best predictor of future issues, now it's just a waste of time.



Yes well, not all benefits in game need to be tied to a resolution mechanic to be useful. Again, when the rules are out, feel free to revisit. At least in my opinion, at my table players get advantages all the time that never turn in to a die roll boost.



I know how you feel, usually happens when I'm off my meds.

Be well
KB

I....

I can't do this. I cannot do this for six more months. I cannot have every discussion giving feedback on the playtest and elements of the playtest turn into a giant debate where one side argues things work just fine while the other side argues it's a problem.
It's not worth my time or the levels of stress it causes me.

I'm out. I am done with the Pathfinder 2 playtest. Congratulations, you have won. You have driven me away. I hope you are satisfied with your victory.

 

[Nathan Fish]

"Most hits won't dent"? With hardness 5, only the weakest of hits will not dent.

The paladin does 1d8+4 (5 damage minimum). Enough to dent a shield each hit.

Thus a shield roughly provides you with extra 10 HP, which is fair.
But I wonder if something like "the shield can absorb 10 damage before it breaks" would be easier.


Maybe like Final Fantasy Tactics, where armor and shields only gave you THP.

I was operating under the assumption that shields would be hardness 9+, as in the Glass Cannon Podcast. If ~5 is truly the newer number, then yeah, there's gonna be a lot of dents. As for damage tracking, I prefer the Dent system. The player doesn't need to do any subtraction, and repairs can be "I fix a Dent". HP would get progressively more mathy as numbers get bigger. Dents are just checkboxes that you put on your sheet.

 

[Kobold Boots]

I....

I can't do this. I cannot do this for six more months. I cannot have every discussion giving feedback on the playtest and elements of the playtest turn into a giant debate where one side argues things work just fine while the other side argues it's a problem.
It's not worth my time or the levels of stress it causes me.

I'm out. I am done with the Pathfinder 2 playtest. Congratulations, you have won. You have driven me away. I hope you are satisfied with your victory.

Yes.

 

[mellored]

True.
I wasn't claiming that Seelah's reaction was as complicated as 4e.

But, this is a full on attack that can be done every round. So Seelah basically gets a bonus attack. (The rogue really wants her as a flank buddy.)
It is also an example of a level 1 reaction, and we don't know what else a level 5 or level 10 Paladin can use to buff a Strike via feats/ spellls/ magic items.

It's not nearly that powerful, as there are many ways to counter it.

1: The enemy can attack the paladin. (Which is the intent).
2: The enemy can walk away. (Only fighters have OA's).
3: The enemy misses. (Only triggers on a hit).
4: Another creature can attack the paladin, force it to use shield block. (only 1 reaction).

Paladin + rogue isn't bad, but again, the enemy can still just walk away around the rogue and stab them from the other side.
So really, you want a paladin + paladin or paladin + fighter, with reach weapons. But that still only adds 1 bonus attack between them, and trades away a shield, and puts you in fireball formation...


So there's nothing broken about it so far. But yea, there's more to come.

 

[Jason Bulmahn]

Hey there all,

So, I just wanted to make a thing clear here. Seelah has the Pickpocket skill feat from her background, as it reflects her history. None of the background feats are meant to be game-changers. They are a flavorful aspect of your character that you might sometimes get some use out of. Now, if you make a rogue and grew up a Street Urchin, it might be more useful to you, but it is not going to give you any great advantage over another character in the group if that works out for you.

I wanted to address another issue as well. The discussions about the playtest are bound to get passionate, sometimes even heated. This sort of back and forth is not going to be for everyone and that is perfectly okay. This playtest is going to utilize a lot of surveys to give a voice to those who do not want to battle out their points on various threads, while also giving us a more scientific way to look at the results from the table. If the boards and arguments are not for you, I would encourage you to work with us on the survey side of things. The more data we get the better.