Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!

It was a long bank holiday weekend here in the UK, and I sent most of it in the (rare) sun eating BBQ; there were two big Pathfinder 2 blog posts which went up in the meantime. The first dealt with armour and shields; the other was our first look at the new Paladin class!

It was a long bank holiday weekend here in the UK, and I sent most of it in the (rare) sun eating BBQ; there were two big Pathfinder 2 blog posts which went up in the meantime. The first dealt with armour and shields; the other was our first look at the new Paladin class!


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  • Armor now affects Touch AC; each has a different bonus for AD and TAC.
    • Studded leather +2 AC, +0 TAC
    • Chain shirt +2 AC, +1 TAC, noisy
  • Armor has traits, such as "noisy".
  • Armor has a Dex mod cap to AC, penalties to STR/Dex/Con skill checks, a Speed penalty, and a Bulk value.
  • Potency Runes -- Items can be enhanced with potency runes.
    • Bonuses to attack rolls, increase on number of damage dice (weapons)
    • Bonus to AC, TAC, and saving throws (armor)
    • Example studded leather with +3 armor potency rune gives +5 AC, +3 TAC, and +3 to your saves.
    • Potency runes can be upgraded.
  • Shields -- requires an action to use and gain an AC and TAC bonus for one round.
  • Other gear -- gear has quality levels (poor -2, expert +1, master +2)
  • Interact -- this is a new action, used for grabbing objects, opening doors, drawing weapons, etc.


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  • Paladins! Apparently the most contentious class.
  • Core rules have lawful good paladins only (others may appear in other products)
  • Paladin's Code -- paladins must follow their code, or lose their Spell Point pool and righteous ally class feature.
  • Oaths are feats and include Fiendsbane Oath (constant damage to fiends, block their dimensional travel)
  • Class features and feats --
    • Retributive strike (1st level) -- counterattacks and enfeebles a foe
    • Lay on hands (1st level) -- single action healing spell which also gives a one-round AC bonus
    • Divine Grace (2nd level) -- saving throw boost
    • Righteous ally (3rd level) -- house a holy spirit in a weapon or steed
    • Aura of Courage (4th level) -- reduce the frightened condition
    • Attack of Opportunity (6th level) -- presumably the basic AoO action
    • Second Ally (8th level) -- gain a second righteous ally
    • Aura of Righteousness (14th level) -- resist evil damage
    • Hero's defiance (19th level) -- keep standing at 0 HP
  • Litanies -- single action spells, verbal, last one round.
    • Litany of righteousness -- weakens enemy to your allies' attacks
    • Litany against sloth -- slows the enemy, costing reactions or actions
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Shasarak

Banned
Banned
The solution is not to remold the paladin into something it isn't, the solution is to have a separate class (Call it Champion or Holy Warrior) to embody that diversity you seek while leaving the paladin be what it is meant to be. Just like with wizards, I don't like them, they are quite specific and reduced into what they do and what kind of characters you can make with them. But I'm happy because I have the sorcerer, the warlock, the druid, the bard and the witch to fill those spaces instead of a watered down class that wouldn't ring true to a wizard fan because it was repurposed for my ends. Why remake something for people who don't like it at the expense of people who like it as it is?

I think you make some good points. In regards to the Holy Warrior idea, I agree that for many Gods it does not even make sense to have a group of heavy armoured fanatics within the church.

You are describing holy warriors, not paladins. Paladins are empowered by Good itself, not by any random deity, that for all we know could be killed or depowered tomorrow.

I also prefer the traditional "Good" Paladins over the idea they must follow a God but then again I was a big fan of the Paksenarrion novels.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
IMO, the base class should be something like "crusader", "champion" or something like that. Then paladin could be the lawful good sub-class of that.

Also, I dislike the "if you do evil you lose all your powers" and would much rather see something like "when you do good, you gain a spell point", or "when defending the innocent, you gain +1d6 radiant damage".

Why not have the cake and eat it too? Why not have two classes, one your purported crusader tailor made to support hundreds of snowflake holy warriors that fit one super specific domain/deity each and one single paladin class that embodies the paladin with all trapping (Lawful Good only, code of conduct, one evil act and you fall perhaps forever) ?
 

JohnnyZemo

Explorer
As a GM, I have to say I am not a fan of this "spend an action to activate your shield" thing. I don't want each character's armor class to be constantly fluctuating during combat. Waaaaay too much to keep track of. I mean, a few buffs are fine; I'm used to Shield of Faith and Mage Armor. And then you're going to have players who forget to say they're using the shield each round. (If they want to just say they are always using it, I could live with that.)

Pathfinder's strength is giving players lots of options. Making it painful for the GM is not helpful.
 

Lokius

First Post
I like PF 2e paladins, they embody what the paladin concept originated as a holy champion of good and justice. I think sticking to that as the starting point is good. The paladin code for me was also a good move, it makes it much more accessible, previously it was vague. I will also add that the DnD 5e paladin 'oaths' are also articulated. The Paizo paladin is much more representative of the paladin class roots in AD&D.

As a design choice I like it. It sets a point of difference to 5e and that is a good thing for us the players. PF 2e shouldn't be a clone or be dictated to by the design choices of Wizards. I like it as a design choice that says 'a paladin is not just a fanatical warrior, a paladin is a holy champion of good and justice.' If you want to play a fanatical warrior (hellknight etc) then you can play a cleric or fighter who RP's that devotion. Paladins as a concept get great benefits and are thus held to higher standards for always having to be good. LG is the hardest alignment to stick to in terms of RP advantage, it means the character always has to work for someone else rather than herself. This is much more of a burden, LE can use the law for personal advantage, CE can steal, murder etc all they want. Also the armour champion and protecting others works a lot better with a good alignment than neutral or evil alignments.

Next. Crunch. I would say PF 2e is looking to be a medium crunch system same as PF 1e. 5e is definitely a low crunch system. Players make about 6 choices after creation (excluding spells) that shape there character, the most meaningful one being for when they pick a specialisation (if that isn't determined at creation). But in reality the only other choices after creation are feat or stat increase. I like 5e, its a low crunch accessible game and a great way to get people into roleplaying. It isn't a good system if you like really tailoring the way a character plays. 5e was really set up for its hard to get character builds wrong and that is great. What is good is we have other games like PF that do allow us to do that if we feel like it. PF 2e looks to be cleaning up and having a good base system for all the curly rules and interactions PF1e had. So while it has a medium amount of crunch it had a solid simple framework to underpin it and now these are built right into their classes from the get go. This is a good natural evolution, it just takes it in a different direction for 5e, but again this is a great thing for us players.

Tying back to the paladin thing, PF2e seems like it will have a lot of flavour options for paladins in the way you want to build them. The flavours will all be 'good' but the things you aren't allowed to do based on your diety or culture will help differentiate the RP aspects that are enshrined by 'oaths' in 5e. PF2e will enable you much greater flexibility in the way you build your paladin (more support, defense or attack) by the class options as you build rather than locking them to an oath that says what aura you will get. In the long run each PF2e paladin is likely to play a lot more different that each 5e paladin.

TLDR: Paladins being special is a good thing, its what differentiates a paladin from a fighter, cleric of fighter/cleric devoted to a deity.

PF2e looks to be a medium crunch system built on a simple action economy framework. Simple actions but a lot more character choices and abilities chose from.
 

Pokelefi

First Post
JohnnyZemo - Today, 03:21 AM


As a GM, I have to say I am not a fan of this "spend an action to activate your shield" thing. I don't want each character's armor class to be constantly fluctuating during combat. Waaaaay too much to keep track of. I mean, a few buffs are fine; I'm used to Shield of Faith and Mage Armor. And then you're going to have players who forget to say they're using the shield each round. (If they want to just say they are always using it, I could live with that.)

Pathfinder's strength is giving players lots of options. Making it painful for the GM is not helpful.​

I really wonder how pathfinder 2 will be to dm
I always hear that pathfinder 1 is a nightmare to dm and not advised for beginners
the amount of player choice ( even if i like the idea behind it) I'm affaried the either make dm very unpredictable (more then usual)
I wander how fast it will play
 

mellored

Legend
Why not have the cake and eat it too? Why not have two classes, one your purported crusader tailor made to support hundreds of snowflake holy warriors that fit one super specific domain/deity each and one single paladin class that embodies the paladin with all trapping (Lawful Good only, code of conduct, one evil act and you fall perhaps forever) ?
I think you got your snowflake backward. You suggest the paladin gets it's own special class and can't share with any other alignment.

As far as code of conduct and penalties for breaking it (though I still like bonus better), I expect it to happen to all of them.

Though it really makes me want to put them in a scenario where they have to choose between lawful, and good. Like telling them to execute a prisoner they know to be innocent, but was found guilty under the law.
 

As a GM, I have to say I am not a fan of this "spend an action to activate your shield" thing. I don't want each character's armor class to be constantly fluctuating during combat. Waaaaay too much to keep track of. I mean, a few buffs are fine; I'm used to Shield of Faith and Mage Armor. And then you're going to have players who forget to say they're using the shield each round. (If they want to just say they are always using it, I could live with that.)

Pathfinder's strength is giving players lots of options. Making it painful for the GM is not helpful.

It certainly feels like you need a white board more than a DM screen for PF2.
 

Zansy

Explorer
Sorry for multiquoting you, but I kinda felt like I needed to. From what I see, Paladins are a quite specific thing, archetypal, with tons of baggage and many necessary tropes. Just like the D&D wizard. I think -and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, sorry if it comes that way- you don't want to play a paladin, you want to play a holy warrior of an specific deity with features that reinforce that, and then you want to call that a paladin. But -from where I'm coming from- that isn't a paladin, that is a holy warrior. A paladin is a virtuous knightly defender of justice or a noble cause. Can a paladin be a holy warrior of a deity? of course, as long as that deity is aligned with good and justice. Does every deity have paladins? I don't think so. Can all deities have dedicated holy warriors? yes. Are all of them paladins? no, they aren't.

The solution is not to remold the paladin into something it isn't, the solution is to have a separate class (Call it Champion or Holy Warrior) to embody that diversity you seek while leaving the paladin be what it is meant to be. Just like with wizards, I don't like them, they are quite specific and reduced into what they do and what kind of characters you can make with them. But I'm happy because I have the sorcerer, the warlock, the druid, the bard and the witch to fill those spaces instead of a watered down class that wouldn't ring true to a wizard fan because it was repurposed for my ends. Why remake something for people who don't like it at the expense of people who like it as it is?
Okay, first of all you are putting words in my mouth. What makes your super-narrow definition for paladin more valid than my more broadly applicable one? What makes you think all those "necessary tropes", which include among them being a stick in the mud, or "the party babysitter", are a positive thing?

You are defining the paladin as you think it should be, and make the distinction between a holy warrior and a paladin. Now, I'm not a historian or anything, but I think that's a misleading distinction.

In our reality, Paladins, from what I could tell, are a very specific brand of warriors, they are these big-shot Elite knights that were originally Charlemagne's closest people. They were (again, from what I could tell,) religious, but at their time, almost everyone —especially if they were anybody important in Europe — were also religious. that distinction doesn't speak much to me as a foundation that paladins have to be Lawful Good and serve a Lawful Good deity, at least not any more than if we were discussing those limitations on a Cleric.

What the historical Version did have, from what I could tell from reading a bit, was similar to what we are referring to as "The code of conduct". Which basically said what Charlemagne thought were the ideal qualities of his warriors. But who's to say that in a fantasy world there wouldn't be someone else to give different qualities of what a paladin is? they aren't the first or the last "rank of elite warriors", not historically and not in fantasy.

I really don't mind if players who want to play the paladin of Valor and Justice have their thing, either. But, like it or not, paladins in RPGs are the default name to the actual representatives of "holy warriors" in the core rulebook. That's why they have features like "Lay on Hands" and divine spells ingrained in them. That is how I see it, and that's how a lot of people happen to (and will) see it, too. If you're already planning on representing the paladin as THE holy warrior, you may as well get it right the first time and not patch it up later.

If you want play a holy warrior, it makes sense to be a paladin, because of this very misrepresentation issue. If the class gives the feel and diversity it should have, normal players shouldn't have to resort to brewing up a "cleric/fighter/bard" combo or something else crazy just because you don't want to deal with the code of conduct, or just because you don't want to serve a Lawful Good deity and be Lawful Good++. Can you agree that it's a lot of wasted effort to not be that one type of paladin, that you envision should be "the only one?"

On a final note, making the class more accessible to others, and offering the players more than one way to play it, is not "remolding the class to what it isn't"; rather, it's expanding the concept to a more inclusive perspective, that appeals to a broader audience. Anyone can add almost any impositions on their character if they really wanted to enough, it's messing with those impositions once they are official that is a LOT more work, or require you to have the right group who just doesn't care enough about those limitations to uphold them, and both of those are privileges not every paladin wannabee has.

Because paizo has such a narrowminded view of what a paladin is, it means I can't play the paladin I want with their system. To appeal to their own interests, i'll also discuss the factor of probability - the more specific the requirements you impose, the less odds you have of finding someone who can meet those requirements, which means less people are going to meet those requirements and thus simply not pay a pally.

I agree with you that you should be able to play the paladin the way you envision it, as a devout knight of order and good, divine or otherwise, but not at the cost of everyone else who wants to play it even slightly differently.

To say that not every kind of holy warrior can be a paladin class in an RPG is an old-fashioned bias, because if it's in the core rules, it sets the standard - it represents the holy warriors, and, until something else comes along to meet the more specific needs of the people, that means it represents all of the holy warriors. Not just yours or mine. all of them.


Now then, even if you told me that the paladins didn't have to be LG, but must be either Lawful or Good, that would speak volumes and expand what you can do with the class - instead of 1 way of being a paladin, Now you have 5, and you can play with what it means to have different codes of conduct, and even be able to make alternative ones for those alignments in the long run as you introduce archetypes, and all of this can make sense intuitively.

In Pathfinder1, the design philosophy I perceived for most class/race options as the game evolved was "let's do anything and everything we could get away with." Except for the paladin, who remained very conservative to it's core concept (with archetypes being "different shapes of sprinkles" that, if they made any change to the code of conduct, were merely "more rules to follow", and not "different rules to follow").

(EDIT: If you think about it, the same company that's trying to sell you goblins as a new core player race, can't conceive the thought of the paladin acting any different than their hard and fast personality limitations demand you to. And if you adhere to those taboos, the deity you choose gives you even more limitations. It's a step forward but also a slap in the face. All the Different paladins will have to obey these universal laws of the same code of conduct. That is simply absurd.)

Why do other classes get expanded roles and broader applications (i.e. rogue, alchemist) when paladins only get stricter and narrower? Even if they have a deity to customize them, they dress the anathema on top of their "1 size fits all" restrictions. I'm sorry, but I just don't think that's an intelligent way for paizo to go about it. It's a step Backwards more than anything else.
 
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The Paladin Code is a rather bizarre mutant form of Consequentialism, whose primary goal is even stated to be avoiding complex ethical conundruma. Seems very un-Paladin.
I think you put your finger on it. The code is presented as a rational, logical construct, where the archetype of the paladin is high romance. It makes the paladin out to be Spock, coolly calculating the right thing to do in case of a dilemma. Instead they should be Kirk, finding or making a third option through their heroic will.
 

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